I pulled most of the 1834 information from a book called "Palestinians; The making of a People" by Baruch Kimmerling and Joel S. Migdal. You could always try and find more information on Ibrahim Pasha and his Muhamad Ali (that's where Clay took the name from) but there isn't much available.

Carol this will be my last post on subject we are arguing around in circles. Getting nowhere.

"No, I was talking about the rest of the country. They have no desire to be under Moslem or PA control.

If by "the rest of the country", you mean Israel proper, excluding the West Bank, Gaza, and East Jerusalem, I don't really think that is relevant to this discussion. At least not relevant to any points I have made in this discussion "

I had pointed this out so you can see another POV. Not even all Palestinians want to live in the PA not to mention Druze and Circassians.

"There was a general cessation of PALESTINIAN POLICE terrorist attacks (I think there were several). The terrorist organisations did kill people, and there were numerous attempts foiled daily. The Palestinian Police were supposed to nip the Hamas and Jihad in the bud, but didn't.

My understanding, based on quotes I've read from former Israeli government officials (including at least one former prime minister), among other people, is that some of the more extremist organizations did continue to try to disrupt the peace process, but that there was a pause in the kind of violence you are seeing at this time, during the period when the Palestinians had some hope for the outcome of the Oslo process. When Palestinians have hope, the majority of them just want to get on with their lives. When they have none, they are much more willing to resort to desperate measures."

It's the extremists I'm talking about! As long as they have free reign there will never be peace only more hate.

"So's rocket fire and shootings and bombings against Israeli citizens with far less justification.

Rocket fire and shootings and bombings against Israeli citizens are wrong. But you are wrong about there being far less justification. The people in the West Bank, Gaza, and East Jerusalem have no human rights whatever. They are not even human beings in the eyes of the Israeli government and the IDF. If you were living under those conditions, I bet you'd be fighting just as hard, if not harder, to change that situation"

Not human beings in the eyes of the IDF and the government? First of all that's baloney. Yes, some of them, not everyone, and you want to talk inhuman look at how the Arab governments put down unrest. This is a war, people are getting sick of it, these things will happen. You try being 19 and sent to Jenin or Hebron and see if you act with any loftier morals. No human rights is ridiculous and untrue. Is there room for improvement? Of course but things will get worse as long as there is this constant terror.

"We have no intentions of forcing them to leave, I don't know where you got that from.

I didn't say "forcing" them to leave. I said "persuading" them to leave. Basically, that means making their lives so bloody miserable that they won't be able to justify staying. It's been the strategy all along. I got this information from quite a few Israeli Jews. "

Semantics and BS. Absolute and uttter cr*p. This from Meretz members?

"Things are alos more complicated than they may appear

Yes, I am very aware of that. However, I tend to think I am more aware of what goes on within the West Bank, Gaza, and East Jerusalem than you are. "

Trust me I know probably just as much.

"How does firing a rocket on Shderot or blowing up a bus defend their homes and livelihoods? That is not a justified defence, in fact it's not defence at all. It's murder. That's the violence I meant.

I can't justify it. But I can help you try to understand it. They want their freedom. They want Israel to leave them alone so they can get on with their lives. They have tried everything, and nothing has worked. My guess is that they are trying to make it too expensive for Israel (in terms of human costs) to continue to keep the Palestinians in the West Bank, Gaza, and East Jerusalem captive any longer. "

I do understand, but that's the majority of Palestinians. The terrorists couldn't care less. They will not stop till all Israelis are gone then Christians, Druze and when that's done probably themselves. They are dragging everyone down.

"We are not perfect, they are not perfect, it's a very complex situation that is breeding more and more evil. The first step should be cessation of terrorism against civilians. That should come before all else.

That won't work. That plan sets everyone up to fail. The Israeli government first has to give the Palestinians something to hope for. And then it has to give them a good faith reason to believe that they can rely on the Israeli government to deliver on its promises."

Weighing blood for blood we are never going to get anywhere. Why can't you just accept that terrorist attacks should cease? Is land more important than life? If they want to keep acting against the army that's legitimate, but the terrorist attacks ARE NOT. This is monstrous and incredible to hear someone who is obviously involved with human rights using such logic.