>>I was trying NOT to continue the quibbling, because, as I said, you & I have different 1st premises & definitions....I, for example, disagree with the juxtaposition of your sentences. I agree wholeheartedly that end results do matter. If a situation unfairly creates victims and causes discrimination and problems, I will help you right it. I was on a picket line in Hattiesburg Mississippi in 1964 when voting rights were being denied to more than half the population. I even was the deciding factor in getting a black state senator elected to office in Kansas against an avowed racist in the late 60s.<<

Do you see the danger of your thinking proccess? "I stood up for civil rights, I'm not a racist. Therefore, when I shoo a black man out of my store it can't be racism because I have proven I am not a racist." The real danger is that you are far from alone in feeling that way. That's why I call it institutionalized racism--it's general societal consensus that becomes part of how we do business. It's the worst form of racism precisley because so many refuse to recognize it as such. Because you're not burning a cross on someone's lawn doesn't mean you're not hurting them when you decide with everyone else that their kind DOES in fact commit a lot of crime or do cause property values to fall. And that softer attitude towards that racism creates an atmosphere for the hardcore variety to rear its head.

>>As a matter of fact, I have serious problems with the application of some types of affermative action....not with the concept, because I am totally in favor of those who have been discriminated against and who would not otherwise get a fair shake getting the 'break' when things are basically equal otherwise...test scores & such. I just do not favor 'packing' and quotas which do a disservice to the public by passing over those with MUCH better credentials for jobs and school entry.....<<

And where do you draw the line? When it's suddenly you getting short-ended? Did Jennifer Gratz deserve to go the the U of M law school or not? Was the decision to shut her out racist since it was based on a racial quota?

>>Special aid and schooling should be given to help the unqualified GET qualified and be able to compete on a level playing field.<<

Why? They can get qualified right now if they want to. There's really nothing preventing it. The Jim Crow South is dead. That form of racism is pretty dead. The racism now is much more subtle and "friendly" these days. And, in its own way, far worse because the results are often the same and it is far harder to eradicate.