OK - I've watched this thread for several days. Initially I was interested to see whether things I consider to be bad manners (eg: crunching crisps, walking in/out during songs in small venues, humming/singing absently along to ballads etc etc) were universally considered to be so. Then later I was just watching in horror to see whether the 'combatants' advocating different approaches to required standards would ever agree to disagree (my feeling being that there are 2 basic types of club: concert clubs who expect their audience to listen rather than participate and who thus feel it is their duty to provide high standard entertainment, and singers club who exist as a forum for people to have broadly similar musical tastes to share their songs and friendship for the evening). Now the thread seems to be about how you tell someone that their contributions are not suitable in some way, which reminds me of a thread entitled 'how to handle criticism' that was under discussion last year, and which perhaps gives an indication 9from the other side of the fence) of the potential pitfalls of trying to offer helpful criticism.

My personal feelings are that there is not necessarily an exact correlation between ability and likeability. I go to 2 clubs regularly and in each there are singers who are never going to be 'guest' standard, yet these people often contribute a great deal to the evening, because they have an affinity with the music and with the other people there. Both clubs welcome visitors, both provide forums for those who need to use words, or whose handling of a tune can be less than perfect, both book guests and still offer their 'less talented' regulars a song on a guest night, and both are considered to be among the best clubs in the region. These are venues I would choose every time over a concert club because the friendship is more valuable to me than the entertainment. I would far rather listen to a person who can waver out of tune, but understands the story of their song, or a nervous singer who keeps the words handy as a prop for emergencies but feels such an affinity with the song that they want to share it, than to a person who is more technically able, but who has only attended the club because they love to hear themselves, and is uninterested in either anyone else's contribution or the history of their own choice of song.

But these observations are purely personal. I suspect we all have a slightly different perception of what is 'good', what is 'acceptable' and 'what a folk club is for'. Maybe that is the joy of the folk scene. And maybe it is not always about maximising audiences, but rather about making sure that sufficient different outlets exist that we can all find our own place of comfort, whether that is a 100+ concert club or a dozen people in a singaround.