A slightly belated response to Jim's 15 Sep 14 - 04:18 AM response to mine of 14 Sep 14 - 03:36 PM.

> The term is not used by "the man in the street" in any significant sense, certainly not enough to re-define it, as is being claimed here.

The term "folk" (as applied to music and song) is certainly used and understood in the broad sense by many more people than the specialists who would prefer to keep to the narrow meaning. If you asked random people what "folk song" means I think you would find few who would have no idea at all. But you probably would get a variety of answers.

> The two you mentioned* have survived for centuries in the mouths and memories of innumerable singers up to the point where they had all but disappeared - that's what gave them their claim to being folk songs - they were the property of the folk and were almost certainly made within the old folk communities. <

* "William and Lady Marjorie" and "King Orfeo"

Maybe they were at one time sung by many people. But is there any evidence of that? I was reading somewhere recently (but I forget where) the suggestion that some of the classic ballads collected from the likes of Mrs Brown may have been created by the litterati of that time or not much earlier. (Maybe Steve can amplify?)

(I said) "Consider all the ballads about kings, lords and ladies, those about sibling murders "
and Jim said "Not sure of your point here ..."

Only that that we don't need to have been in the situations recounted in the traditional songs to be able to empathise with the characters.

> Change is not a defining feature of what makes folk song, though it can be part of the process.

I was citing changes to (comparatively) recent songs not to suggest that that alone makes them folk songs but only as evidence that the folk process has not ceased, as I think Jim has claimed.

Picking up a different sub-thread; I tried listening to that video of The Blackleg Miner. What Lighter said, "I could understand most of the words, but even though I *know* them, there were still parts that I couldn't make out", goes for me to. AND it seemed to me that a few of the words were not sung at all: for example one line appears to start "Catch the throat ...", rather than "To catch the throat".

I will refrain from any comment on the aesthetics.