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RTim Origins: George Collins: revisited (86* d) RE: Origins: George Collins: revisited 21 Jun 15


I have been singing this song for many years, and have recorded two of versions - mainly because I was born on the edge of the New Forest where 5 versions were collected by Gardiner.

I have never thought of mermaids when singing it!!

I found today some notes I sent awhile ago to Steve Gradham on the subject:

George Collins.

Steve Gardham and I have been discussing this song; here is what I sent him:

I spent some time looking for a connection between Henry Blake and George & Moses of Emery Down and found none.
I have seen reference lately to Henry and giving him the nickname of "Bristol" - as part of the Hampshire Folk Map project (See Hampshire Voices).
What little I could find on him soon told me there was no relation. He seems to have been born in Nursling around 1853 and lived in Millbrook in 1881 (where my father was born!) before being in Bartley to be collected in Sept. 1908.
There was quite a time difference between Gardiner's collecting in Lyndhurst and this later visit to Minstead and Bartley area to collect Henry. I am sure if George & Moses (and Stansbridge) had known of Henry, they would have told Gardiner earlier.

With regard to George Collins, I find it most interesting that George Blake & his son-in-law Henry Stansbridge had different tunes for the same song, and that although the song was known in a relatively small area, no complete texts were collected. The 3rd & 4th verses all seem to have a problem.
The old Penguin Book of Folk Songs suggests that the version in it is from Stansbridge. It is certainly his tune, but Gardiner only collected one verse from him, and the original editors used the Gaylor Brothers (Philip & Henry) of Minstead versions to make up the rest, and I think Malcolm's new edition corrects this.

Later I Sent this:

Your note and my very quick response to it, started me thinking again last night; so I spent more time looking at the 6 versions collected by Gardiner, particularly the tunes. Please remember that Mr. Guyer was collecting tunes for Gardiner at this time.

H327 - George Blake - Tune - 16th July 06, Text - 17th July 09 - St. Denys, Southampton
H419 - Henry Stansbridge - 1 verse Text & Tune - 27th Sept 06 - Bank, Lyndhurst
H439 - Philip Gaylor - Text only - 16th July 09 - Lyndhurst Road (Workhouse)
             - Henry Gaylor - Tune & Text - 27th Sept 06 - Minstead
H658 - George Hiscock - text only, in letter posted to Gardiner (did they ever meet?) - Nov 06
H1193 - Henry Blake - Text & Tune - Sept 9th, 08

Looking at the tunes, it seems clear to me (and my musician wife) that George Blake's, Henry Gaylor's and Henry Blake's are all practically the same or from the same root. However, Henry Stansbridge's is totally different (as I said in my earlier note.)

The other things I notice, and find very interesting, are the dates the texts & tunes were collected.

First - that George's tune was collected the day BEFORE the text? Very unusual.
Second - that Philip Gaylor's text was collected on the SAME day as G. Blake's tune!! St. Denys and The Workhouse at Lyndhurst Road, Ashurst are some miles apart - however there is a railway Station very close to both, ie. a 100 yards. So it would have been possible for Gardiner and/or Mr. Guyer to have collected both songs on the same day?
Third - That Stansbidge's Text & Tune were collected In Bank (near Lyndhurst) on the same day as Henry Gaylor's version in Minstead, some distance away (we don't know exactly where Gaylor lived)? According to information we have on other songs collected on 27th Sept by Gardiner, both George Blake and Henry Stansbridge were together in Bank that day.

It seems a strange coincidence that George Collins was on two occasions, collected from more that one person, in different places on the same day!! For me - it raises questions about the correctness of the dates??? ie. was this simply the day that Gardiner wrote them up, rather than the actual collection dates?

Thank you giving me the opportunity to re-examine these versions, something I did not see at the time of my original work on the song!


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