Steve, I don't know how to answer that without running around in a circle with you, like two dogs chasing each others' tails.

It seems to me that if what I said about Jesuits is true, then Jesuits would be a happy lot, proud and content to be members of a religious order that treasures wisdom so highly. I know a lot of Jesuits, and most of them are congenial, happy, interesting people with fascinating intellects. Generally, they enjoy being Jesuits and enjoy living in religious communities that are active in education and in social justice activities. To my mind, they're good people who love a good, intelligent, open discussion.

Over the years, I've known some Jesuits who are arrogant sons of bitches - but not many of them.

But that's my experience. Your results, no doubt, may vary.

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And yes, Pete from Seven Stars Link, I believe in the incarnation and the resurrection. All Christians do, and it's quite insulting to imply otherwise. As for condemnation, it does seem that for some Christians, a primary pastime is condemning the actions of others while failing to examine the morality of their own actions.

Pete says: To say that believers invented God , seems to me to be begging the question. That's true, but I'd avoid using "majority belief" as proof of the existence of God. If there is no God, then believers must have created God (or however the straw-splitters want to parse that concept). But if there is a God, then God exists independent of belief. Neither side can prove itself right, or the other wrong. Proving non-existence is a well-nigh impossible task, as is the converse.

e.g.

I don't experience God, therefore God must not exist. And those who claim to have experienced God or God's work, are inventing both the god and the experience.

Conversely (more or less):

You haven't experienced or observed God, but my logical system and interpretation of my experience say there is a God; therefore, God must exist and you should believe as I believe. And on top of that, you're going to Hell for your unbelief, so there!

I don't buy either argument. It's a matter of believing or not believing. And not something worth arguing about, because the argument is circular and therefore futile.

Don't judge me on what I believe. That's my business. Judge me on who I am and what I do. Yes, my beliefs are part of that - but not really something that anyone else can understand with any degree of adequacy or fairness.

-Joe Offer-