dave: "....Jim, I think the problem is in the refusal to throw off the baggage of the medieval mindset. You may stop reading here and say that the Church is the baggage of the medieval mindset, but it doesn't have to be. The conflation of the church with the authority structure probably dates from Constantine the Great, often it is thought that Constantine introduced Christianity to the west, but he did no such thing. He appropriated Christianity as part of his power structure..."

BRAVO!!!

dave has broached the heart of the disillusionment, of WHY people think of 'Christianity' as the power structure of an organized 'religious' body of rules, liturgies, control, dogmas and 'costs of subscribing'!!

As the teachings, and effects, resulting from those teachings began to spread out from Judea, its influence was beginning rival Rome's.

In 333 A.D., Constantine defeated the Turks at Istanbul, and came back with the story that he saw a cross in the sky. This was a way to co-opt the spreading influence of Christianity, and incorporate it into a part of the Roman Empire. They incorporated many of the 'pagan' rituals, and beliefs and merged them with an 'adjusted interpretation' of Christianity, and made a state form of the Roman Empire with Christianity part of their ruling religion...sort of a Church/State governing body.

The extent of the Roman Empire, included parts of the Middle East, North Africa, Italy, and extending up to the British Isles, Greece, and up towards Russia...pretty much all of Europe.

The FIRST Roman Empire, was just that...The Roman Empire....when they co-opted their convenient interpretation of Christianity, the Roman Empire became 'The Holy Roman Empire'..and instead of a Caesar, their figure-head, they replaced it with a 'Pope'...who acted in the same capacity...but now had 'God on their side'....and an infraction of the law of the 'state', now became a 'sin'..if you will..and punishable by fines, and servitude, even the confiscation of property as 'penance'.....One could give a 'tithe' to work off time, in a place they invented called Purgatory, called an 'Indulgence'...and if you had enough 'Indulgences' to your name, you might not have to spend hardly any time there, at all!!

...all this was a most effective way of maintaining control of the Empire.

That lasted about 1000 years, commonly referred to as 'The Dark Ages'. Reading a Bible would have been strictly prohibited....as well as the fact that there were none, UNTIL Gutenberg invented the printing press, around 1450, and began printing them....so the Empire-State/Church banned them, and forbade ANY interpretation, of them, or the gathering of groups who wanted to read and discuss..or even pray within those groups, unless it was in concordance, with a 'State sanctioned 'priest'. Hardly ANY education, inventions and so on, happened during this time...BUT, there was an 'Inquisition'...gotta stamp out ANY 'heresies' arising from any interpretation, of ANYTHING about 'Christianity' that wasn't under the authority of the 'Pope', as maintain its ironclad rule over their 'subjects'.

When Martin Luther began his studying and teachings, this became a major 'unraveling' to the Holy Roman Empire....and subsequent protests arose...as did different interpretations...hence, the word 'PROTESTants'. There was now a schism,(or schisms) within the binding force of the HOLY Roman Empire. Also Henry the VIII, wanted to divorce....and that was forbidden by Rome, so he split from the Roman Church, and from having the Pope as a Supreme ruler, over him...you guys know the rest about that.....HOWEVER, all these 'newer' denominations, arisen out of rebelling from Rome, formed their reformed churches much in the order and pattern of what they had been accustomed to...for centuries!!!...sort of a variation of a theme.

Now a brief word of the two..The Roman Empire, and ORIGINAL Christianity..... The 'Roman Empire', later 'Holy Roman Empire' still yearned to re-united, and become a world power...unite, and re-claim their now lost territory and rule. The word 'Reich' as in the Third Reich, literally means, 'realm of the Emperor', specifically the Roman Empire. (Here...see....) The Second Reich was the German Empire...and we all know what the Third Reich was....AND as you read above, the control of the Roman Empire territory, happens to 'co-inside' with the designated expanse of the Axis powers.(see above)

Christianity, in it's 'original form' was completely different...AND the reason the were even called Christian, was not exactly because it was some sort of a denomination, but the word originally meant 'Christ-like'....and the earlier 'church'(if you will), consisted of a lot of their believers, whose BEHAVIOR exemplified obedience to the command of LOVE...and many of them seemed to have 'powers', as a result of their adherence to 'Loving God above all things, and your bother as yourself'.....and it was RAPIDLY gaining in popularity....so much that Rome saw it as a threat!!...and the power that some of these followers were exercising, were blowing people's minds.....and many of the original eyewitnesses of Jesus, some who got dialed into what it was, gave up their lives, unto martyrdom, rather than blow off what they saw, and had 'access' to. ...so it must have been a lot heavier version, than what was passed down, after centuries of a co-opted version, which basically was powerless, beyond the State's enforcement!!

That being said, and not to go on much further, and contrary to Roman Catholic dogma, the original apostles and disciples of Jesus was not about an instituted, organization....but rather an 'organism', one living manifestation of God, incarnate...complete with love AND a knowledge and understanding of how the elements of the 'unseen' worked, and as a result, included many of what people called 'miracles'.

Here's an interesting example....Jesus wasn't teaching that 'if you were good' you'd 'go to heaven'....never found in his quotes, never found in any of the letters...but what WAS being taught, and shown, was that, 'heaven is coming to us', so wise up, get your acts together and utilize love in a way that results in some amazing, and unexplainable things, called 'miracles'..but in actuality, just a given 'side-effect'.....not a goal...just dealing with the properties
of a fuller awareness of who and what we are.

GfS

P.S. Sorta makes it fathomable of why today's ideological sense of materialism, and the control over it tends to discourage people who want to 'believe' in a power other than the state approved variety!!