Steve: as an outsider I don't think Joe is trying to get the church off the hook he is just telling us how things are configured, times change and what was standard yesteryear is not standard now, I don't agree with his take on the compensation front because the American way is sue for as much as much as you can get, unfortunate, but you have to live with that if you are in the USA. I recognise where both Joe and Jim are coming from and wish they could see where they agree a rather than where they differ but thats life on Mudcat
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