Keith, you say "hence there were plenty of them to murder their way out of prison." If this refers to the death of a prison warder in 1983, I believe that charges of murder were dropped against the escapees on the ground that the warder's death could not be put down to the breakout.

Gareth, it's useful at last to get an insight into where you forage for you information. I notice that your link above includes a link to the loyalist ideological education website" and is unusual in describing the deaths of soldiers on active service as a massacre.

I've not been paying attention to this thread for a while, but some time ago you asked Ard Mhacha if he accepts British benefits. Surely this question harks back to the days when the north had wonderful roads while those in the south were full of potholes. The days when layalists thought they could count on catholics to vote for continued partition rather than throw in their lot with the impoverished republic. Wake up Gareth - the world has moved on. Ireland has caught up, and it has managed to do so without having to plunder the human and other indigenous resources of other countries. (From even right-wing historians like Corelli Barnett you can learn that Britain has paid its way in only 20-30 of the years since the mid-19th century.

Teribus: when precisely did you do that first tour, and where were you based? It would be intersting to know how many other tours you did, and who with, as difrerent regiments had different styles and had different experiences.

That was certainly an unedifying episode involving Jean McConville. I can think of others (Captain Nairac comes to mind), and Wolfgang has reminded us of one of the worst. It's what comes of paramilitarism, however disciplined and idealogical such gangs consider themselves to be. What I cannot stomach is when a democracy allows its security forces, with apparent inpunity, to behave as crassly.

I remember (for instance) police in London surrounding a mini-car with 17 vehicles, and when the mini stopped at traffic lights, they shot its innocent driver repeatedly. For good measure they then thrashed his head with a pistol when he fell out into the road. Thanks to their stupendous incompetence he actually survived. His offence? They had mistaken him for a man wanted for killing a cop.

Several times in Northern Ireland, soldiers opened fire when under no threat whatsoever. I don't consider it acceptable for state forces to behave like this. You may remember, Teribus, the murder of Joe McCann in Joy Street, in April 1972. Perhaps it happened on your watch, in which case do tell us why it had not been necessary to confirm the man's identity before opening fire? (This in the case of a man notorious for changing his appearance almost daily.) I expect the deaths of some paras a few days earlier had nothing to do with it.

I don't have much sympathy for the victims, Keith, but that doesn't alter the fact that the deaths on the rock were an outrage, and rightly caused the UK and its army much embarrassment for a long time afterwards. More to the point, it fuelled a counter-reaction.

You will have noted the comments Sir John Stevens made about the deaths of Pat Finucane and Rosemary Nelson (they have been quoted above I think). And you may recall that even as Stevens undertook his inquiry into police complicity, his office was mysteriously burnt out with the loss of many files. (But then he had been unwise enough to have his office in a place as insecure as Carrickfergus RUC barracks.)

I said in a Mudcat thread a year or two ago that Stevens' work was a turning point in the British establishment position, and marked a marked contrast with the appointment of John Stalker to do a similar job in respect of earlier deaths. Putting Stalker up against John Hermon was like sending a lamb to the slaughter. Stevens is of a different calibre (and is now the UK's most senior cop). Putting him on the case paved the way for disbandment of the RUC - and I for one think it is high time that Sinn Fein tok its seat at the table in terms of managing the new Police Service of Northern Ireland. (No earthly reason why not if Brendy is right that the war is won.)