What was Noah's last name, for that matter? Count? Zark? Or, in keeping with this thread, did he really exist? Or was he a contruct of our collective unconcious, created to fulfill some unexpressed and unexpressible desire within the human psyche? Mayhap he was, as Buber expressed it so well in his "Dialogue above the city," structuring the whirlpool out of existence -- or perhaps he was riding it. We will never know these things, of course, for we can never know these things by definition. It would all be so depressing except, as Camus wrote, "The point is to live."