"you were the one who first proudly claimed to licking boots " ...ummm, if tongue-in-cheek cynicism is lost on you, I give up.

"if you can produce the evidence of the clones working as you wish me to accept that they do - then provide the evidence that will convince me."    ...as I remember the order of things, YOU began the issue by claiming that Joe and/or the clones were abusing their power. There is a principle in debate that states that the burden of proof is on the assertor. I am not sure why I, or anyone else needs to 'prove' that they are not if we simply don't see your assertion to be true.
   Your statement "This is not a matter of opinion it is a matter of fact." kind of leaves me baffled. How can anyone debate or discuss if we can't agree on a basic issue of whether it IS or is NOT a fact?

You go on to say .." But that does not mean that I have ignore the evidence and change my view because it may be a minority one "

indeed...if you believe this, I guess you just believe it. As to majority/minority, I don't remember seeing many others (except for anonymous jabs) agreeing with you, while there are many long-time members who are sad and upset with your claims.

The question is, of course, what should we all do at this point if we can't convince each other? You say you intend to remain here, finding some virtues in Mudcat, I assume, that are NOT corrupted by some sort of 'underground elite'.

I would suggest then, that we ALL go back to posting about music, making jokes, trading information and debating the important (and trivial) issues of the world as best we can....and that IF you see specific, egregious evidence of editing and censorship that you deem unreasonable, then call attention to it. And...IF you are overruled, then shrug! This long, contentious claim & counter-claim.."yes you did", "no I didn't" accomplishes little.

I have tried to figure out how to say all this without it sounding like I am just telling you to "like it or lump it", but I suspect that's how you will read it. Perhaps that IS the only thing to say to someone with your views, as the fact remains that "Our Forum" is not a democracy. It is some sort of Oligarchy or Enlightened Despotism...but one that 'most' or its members feel ok with most of the time.

Shambles....you have much to say and contribute on matters OTHER THAN whether the forum management is biased & corrupt. I hope you will do that....

So...as of now, I will NOT debate this issue with you in public threads any more. I will try to answer PMs if you wish,(though I am not the decision maker) and if it seems there is any progress in understanding to be made that way.

I care about this place, I know others do and I assume YOU do....we just have different views. We CAN all co-exist here if we work at minimizing our differences......