It is a bit strange, Jerry, to speak directly about issues of faith & belief (both very important issues and closely related, though not exactly the same) with folks like you who are sincere believers in one religious tradition. I have met so many who want to either 'cure' me or berate me for my errors & intransigence that I am always a little nervous..*wry grin*. (Growing up in Kansas, it was easy to say the wrong thing in awkward circumstances!)

I started out in life as a Methodist...my grandmother was quite active in her church, and because we moved a LOT when I was young, making getting attached to a church hard to do, we started attending semi-regularly when I was in 3rd grade and I began attending weekday Bible school at a church close to us. I was in 3rd & 4th grades, and I questioned very little. The stories were fascinating, and grownups I respected seemed to take them seriously...so what was to question? I simple had 'faith' and thus, belief.
   But the seeds of doubt were planted, because it was just in those years that it dawned on me that Santa Claus was 'just a story'...but my brother was 3 1/2 years younger, and it was easier to keep up the pretense. So, our family continued with sporadic church attendence for years, though 'religion' was not a daily issue and I did not have a close association with a minister or others whose faith WAS a daily issue. In fact, table grace was seldom encountered except at large family gathering where grandparents were involved. Nevertheless, at those times, I simply bowed my head and took this 'blessing' as normal...though I kinda remember being slightly embarrassed that we didn't do it regularly. I still had 'faith' that it was what we 'should' be doing, as I thought that vague penalties were supposed to be visited on those who didn't follow the rituals....and I still remember lying in bed at night at about the age of 12-12-14 praying a bit and asking for things and trying to make sure I 'kept my foot in the door'. I remember beginning to learn about 'naughty words' and worrying what would happen to me if I used them...so I tried whispering a few when I was alone..*grin*...nothing happened, but I wasn't sure why not. I never particularly wanted TO use them, I was just curious..........and there is the crux of it all.....

   That curiosity became a major part of my life. I had gotten a set of World Book Encyclopedias when I was in 5th grade, and I LOVED reading about 'stuff'...and the school library...wow! And there was stuff in the books about other religions...Buddhism and exotic 'foreign' religions, as well as Catholicism and Judaism and such that **I** had had very little contact with. And it gradually dawned on me that many of those religions did not get along with each other well!

....well, you see where this is going...bright kid reads stuff and develops doubts and asks questions- (I probably could have made the above a lot shorter, but it helps ME to get perspective to type it for myself). I became a serious 'doubter', in that I questioned 'why' on lots of things...even getting into arguments with my parents when they told me that tornados usually came from one direction.."but..it's a WIND..and winds blow all directions!"..took awhile before I got clear evidence as to 'why'. By the time I was in high school, philosophy was in my head, and by the time I was a senior, I was determined to major in it, though it would take several years before I could explain exactly why!

I was married in my first year in college (at 19!) and religion & faith came up...she was a girl who had defied her parents and become a Catholic, but who was not 'practicing' by the time we met, and I still had the tendrils of 'faith & belief' hanging on me, as religion had never particularly offended me...so we decided to join.....the Unitarians!

...and there it was...a FORMAL situation of joining with others to discuss & share issues of faith and morals and ideas, but with no invoking of Jesus...or even of God.. in a formal way...but merely accepting that human beings often need some way to express their wonder at the mysteries and joys of life, and need to share pains and frustrations and support each other.

So...as formal training in Philosophy and practical training in 'life' proceeded, the issues had to be confronted directly on many occasions...this was *KANSAS*, and many of the students in class with me were dedicated, confirmed....and often belligerent, Christians! There I was..needing to retain my cherished 'open mindedness', but still avoid conflicts with those who believed differently. Then I read Kierkegaard's "Fear & Trembling" and other works and came nose-to-nose with the story of Abraham & Isaac and THE great test of 'faith' in the Bible, at the same time I was discovering Kaufmann's books such as "Faith of a Heretic" (mentioned in earlier post). It was interesting...I saw God's testing of Abraham in two contexts...one was the 'original', in that supposedly, God spoke directly to Abraham in ordering the sacrifice of Isaac, and Abraham had to pay attention, though obviously in great conflict.
But then I had to see it from MY viewpoint, in that no test of this sort (that is, DIRECTLY from God) had ever been asked of me, and so far as I knew, of no one else for thousands of years. I simply could not imagine the sort of 'faith' that would be required to deal with that situation.....so, I needed to find a way to even deal with the very idea of faith in my developing view of things! (took me long enough to get to the point, hmmm? *grin*)
   Gradually, it became clear to me that I used 'faith' mostly to refer to what others were feeling, except for situations where I felt I had clear information. Do I 'know' the sun is going to rise tomorrow? Strictly, no...but I have faith that it will, as it has a perfect record of doing so. Do I 'know' that my car will start in the morning...nope, sometimes it doesn't, but I have 'faith' that it will...I believe that it will, as it has a very good record of doing so. Faith has become, for me, very much a matter of 'an informed wager'...a calculated risk, instead of the 'trust/faith/belief' in an abstract concept about souls, eternity and a creator that others profess.

   Others have used non-religious 'faith' to refer to much more poetic matters..faith in the spirit of Mankind, in one's own power to reason and be honorable, and those are good thoughts and tempting... but it seems to me that they are often equivocations on the meaning of the word.

In what may appear a bit of a circular analysis, I have 'faith' that the beliefs of others are the result of very different life experiences than I describe about myself above, and that others arrive at ways of dealing with the mysteries of life & the universe through paths that I have never walked and, literally, could not walk. Therefore, the 'faith' that seems strange to me when I look at it in others, from my external viewpoint, is also the most natural expression of their feelings for those involved...so it seldom does any good for me to debate the basis of it with them.

In all the threads in Mudcat in which I have offered opinions on these matters, I have tried to keep this distinction in mind and try to respect the path others have followed, while suggesting that since it IS such a complex issue, and that the very words faith & belief are used because no one can prove much one way or another, we need to quietly allow and tolerate, and even celebrate, when possible, differences, while staying aware that ultimate 'truth' could favor NONE of us. This is not easy for many to deal with...their emotional needs require an answer..not just directions and more questions!

I have FAITH that most of the good people I know will view my attempts to sort it all out with tolerance and forbearance...and JUST enough humor to keep us all smiling.....

now...I need to go back and re-edit all that for 3 days, figgering out better ways to say it all...but I ain't gonna....