The Mudcat Café TM
Thread #67315   Message #1132040
Posted By: CarolC
09-Mar-04 - 02:46 AM
Thread Name: BS: Anti-Semitism & The Left
Subject: RE: BS: Anti-Semitism & The Left
(Hint: you compared one of us to Hitler, and suggested that I was not "for human rights.")

No, I did not compare one of you to Hitler. I compared a behavior to Hitler. And I posed it as a question. I asked the other person if he/she advocated a certain behavior that I connected to Hitler. I did not accuse that person of this behavior.

I did not suggest that you aren't for human rights. What I said, and what I've been criticized by Fred Miller for saying, is that I can't speak for you about weather or not you are for human rights, that only you can say whether or not you are for human rights. *Please* stop mis-quoting me.

I have not said that what is happening to the Palestinians is like the holocaust. But it is causing suffering in individuals that is as great as the suffering in individuals who experienced the holocaust.
And when I think about what we are saying when we say, never again, I'm not thinking about all of the particular details of how that suffering is/was caused. I'm thinking about the suffering.

The reason the Palestinians are reacting differently in their circumstance than the Jews did in theirs, is because there are vastly different causitive factors for what causes suffering in the two groups. For Jews, separation from their religion and ethnic identity is often a source of some of the greatest suffering for them. In other words, it's the loss of a way of life. But because of the nature of the diaspora, this way of life is of a fairly portable nature, and, until the creation of the State of Israel, was not tied to any particular location in which they found themselves.

For the Palestinians, the destruction of their way of life, the thing that causes them some of their greatest suffering, is the loss of their land. The loss of their beloved orchards and farmland. Their culture is inextricably tied to their relationship to the land. And despite what you have tried to assert, their relationship to the land that is now within the borders of Israel and the Occupied Territories is the land they have been occupying for more than a thousand years. Maybe not calling themselves Palestinians, but living in that place nonetheless.

And finally, the reason the Jews in Israel will continue the occupation until a workable settlement is reached is because they truly believe the survival of Israel is at stake. I happen to agree with them. I wonder if you do?

I am convinced that the occupation is causing great harm to Israel as well as to the Palestinians. I'm also convinced that the government of Israel has no interest in making any settlements with the Palestinians, but is working toward their eventual removal.

If we were not complicit in the military occupation of the West Bank by Jewish forces, we would be complicit in our own occupation by Arab forces.

This, I disagree with. The premise is based on faulty information and faulty assumptions. You have been taught that these are the only choices. But you don't see what the others see. Palestinians have a saying. They say that one of the biggest problems with the government of Israel is that they just don't know how to take "yes" for an answer.

And you're right. I will never have the degree of indoctrination that you have recieved about the "history" of Israel. (Although I have certainly had enough of it to know what it is.) But some Jews do look beyond that indoctrination and see that the thing they have been taught to fear most is not the thing that is doing them the most harm.

And believe it or not, I do know what it feels like to know that there are many, many people in my daily environment who want to kill me or do other bad things to me. As a woman living in the US, I know that everywhere I go, there are men who want to kill and/or rape me just because I am a woman. I am never without that fear (or at least that realization). I never leave my home without a canister of pepper spray. But I can't go around treating all men like I think they want to kill, and/or rape me. Even though all of the facts point to the reality than many of them do. I have to deal with each one individually, and not perpetuate and injustice by treating all of them as rapists and killers.