well, I'm not sure that what the Dalai Lama believes is any more relevant than what Amos believes...or Bill, for that matter. (other than a succinct expression by one who has spent many years considering the issue)

And, yep, I guess we do reach a point where we can say very little more to each other on the matter. You say "You may feel that if you just add enough complexity to a material system, self awareness and knowing will arise..." and I say, "well....maybe so, I don't know"..and I am willing to NOT know.

I do know that stuff happens today that was once thought to be the work of devils or spirits by 'less enlightened' cultures long ago, and stuff STILL happens in the brain that we are not sure about. My first wife had a Caesarian section under medical hypnosis many years ago...she was told not to feel pain, and she didn't....and others under hypnosis have been told a stick is a red-hot iron, and they scream and blisters arise when they are touched. I also know of bio-feedback, where the brain/mind does things to control responses that are not 'usually' of concious volition......What this tells me is that there is SO much to be studied and learned about that material bunch of neurons and synapses in our heads. It does NOT tell me that I should believe in the most interesting suppositions put forth by those who will not wait for answers. *shrug* You may find it hard to believe, but I would LOVE to be proved wrong...if I can have an explanation of how it works that doesn't rely on poetry and linguistic weaving to clarify the matter. If your point is that it MUST use those images and poetic constructs because it is, by definition, unknowable in traditional physical terms, AND not demonstrable to those who will not, like me, 'open my mind' and believe in order to see....then we are at a gen-you-wine 1st order impasse!

I do feel, however, that the discussion is not a useless endeavor, even with no particular resolution. I have learned a lot about various viewpoints, and where to read further....and the very process of typing out these points allows me to stop and consider just what it is that I DO think, and makes me choose my words carefully and refine my ideas. As long as we agree not to throw bricks when we meet someday..*grin*, I consider it time well spent to debate with someone who thinks...even if not exactly like me!