Jim McCallan - 03 May 04 - 05:15 AM

Most uncharacteristic post for you Jim.

I would definitely agree that there are some major differences between, "the average 18 year old who went to Vietnam, differs quite remarkably from the average 18 year old, who enlists, these days." I therefore found it surprising that you then completely failed to actually detail what those differences were.

You follow up decrying the practice of stating generalisations when formulating an arguement, then proceed to do exactly that!

I fully agree with, and welcome, your statement that you do not, "accept the mindset that carries out these kind of atrocities, as being representative of the vast majority of Armed Forces everywhere." This oddly runs counter to some of the later contentions in your post.

I would also agree that, "The average 18 year old now, however, has grown up with a healthy suspicion of all things Middle-Eastern;", and, considering the history in the growth of terrorism and terrorist tactics, with good cause for the most part.

There are no grounds whatsoever for your contention that "kids nowadays" are more likely to accept orders related to the killing of innocent civilians, than kids from past generations.

"There are also (and always have been), those who sign up purely to 'have a go', 'kick some ass'..., whatever..., and it is my belief that there are more of these kind of people seeking entry into the Armed Forces, these days, than previously." Again, no grounds for this statement, at all. There will be some, and they are normally screened out before enlistment, those that do get through are further weeded out during training, mainly because their mind-set does not take too kindly to a disciplined environment.

"Sociopaths and downright criminals have been joining armies since time immemorial. I don't think anyone could dispute that." Wellington described his troops as being the "Scum of the earth" but added, under discipline those beggars, thieves and murderers became the steadiest troops a general could ask for. Another of his quotes regarding "his men", " I don't know what they do to the enemy, but, By God, they terrify me."

Yes, undoubtedly, there is a 'pack mentality', the difference in the "Vietnam" draftee compared to the "Iraq" recruit, is that under pressure the discipline of the former is the more likely to crack, that of the latter-day volunteer is not. It all comes down to discipline, either that imposed by command, or more importantly, self-dscipline. You are more likely to get both in armed forces consisting of "professionals" - the latter-day volunteer. So I do not know where you find the grounds for stating that, "There are more and more bad apples in the barrel, these days; more, arguably, than there was in the Vietnam days, and there are more that could be easier led into committing atrocities, than there would have been, as well."