beardedbruce, there are several condemnations from me about the killing of civilians by Palestinians in various threads in the Mudcat. The difference between my condemnations and many of the condemnations of Palestinians by others here in the Mudcat, yourself included, is the use of the term "the Palsetinians" as opposed to my phrasing, which is "some Palestinians". Just as when I speak of Jewish terrorists, I am speaking of "some Jews" rather than "the Jews". There is a big difference between these things.

I have a pretty extensive posting history here in the Mudcat, spanning several years. I don't think it would be productive of me to state all of my positions on every subject in every thread. You are welcome to read my posting history if you like, to see what I have to say on any issue, however, and as I recall, I have invited you to do this already.

Many of the German Jews thought of themselves as just as much German as Jewish too, for all the good it did them. (Ashkenazi means German in Hebrew).

Yes, I know this. It was a no-win situation for the European Jews for sure. Their fellow Europeans saw them as foreigners because of their historical Middle Eastern origins, even though they were as completely European as any other Europeans. The Mizrahi Jews face a similar problem in Israel. They Arabic and because of this, their Jewishness is called into question by the Ashkenazi Jews in Israel. This accounts for the fact that most of the Mizrahim in Israel are so right-wing.

This link: http://www.between-lines.org/archives/2003/feb/Sami_Shalom_Chetrit.htm (Why are Shas and the Mizrahim Supporters of the Right? Interview with Sami Shalom Chetrit) in my 17 May 04 - 12:23 AM post is a discussion of that very issue.

I still think the Jews were better off having left for Israel BEFORE Saddam took over. In retrospect, the Zionists were right.

This may be the case, but it is a separate issue from the issue of why the Mizrahim left their countries of origin.

The website to which you gave a link to support your contention that Jews were discriminated against in the Middle East prior to the 20th century has a very clear political agenda. If you can use a link to a site like that one, then it would be equally reasonable for me to use links to the Electric Intifada website, or to the Palestine Remembered website, which I avoid doing because of questions of political bias. And I suspect that if I did use links to those sites, you would not take them very seriously. But I could be wrong about that.

If we are going to discuss very old history, such as during the time of Muhammad, we also can look at the behavior of Jews in the distant past. There are examples in the old testament and other ancient texts, of Jews committing acts of genocide themselves. Granted, these occurances predate the time of Muhammad by some centuries, but they do indicate that Jews are just as human, and just as prone to all of the behaviors, good and bad, as the rest of humanity.

But the only reason I brought up the issue of the Mizrahim was to answer a question posed by beardedbruce.

I don't know, or really care, what CarolC has been, or claims to have been, reading (websites, no doubt).

I've been reading what I can find of the writings of Mizrahim on this subject on the internet. If they say it on the internet, does it have less validity than if they say it to you? Are you of European descent? Is it possible that they wouldn't say to your face things that some of them might say in writing in an environment like the internet, or to each other?

I am well aware that immigrants, and their second and third generation descendants, who came from the various Arab countries, are *generally* among the most right wing and hawkish of all Israelis. Support for a Palestinian state among this community is very weak.

I refer you to the link I posted earlier in this post. The Mizrahim have some pretty complicated issues to deal with. This is what the person being interviewed in that article, Sami Shalom Chetrit, has to say about it:

"Q: So they never supported the "peace camp" in general and the "Peace Agreement" of Oslo in particular?

A: Let me remind you what such a "Peace Agreement" means: that is, the settled and internationally recognized enslavement of the Palestinians in territorial enclaves with the continuous settlement of Messianic Jewish nationalists who pray to their god of hate and death.

Let's be honest: what will the Mizrahim gain from the Ashkenazi model of "peace" known as Oslo or any other initiative within this framework? Nothing! The Global Ashkenazi economy will flourish; the few industrial enterprises left here will be transferred to the Far East and to Jordan and of course to the '67 Occupied Territories. The Ashkenazi upper tenth will become more and more wealthy, to the point that they will kindly agree to satisfy the basic needs of the Mizrahim and the new comers in the townships and poor neighborhoods, (and even less those of Palestinians) in exchange for social quiet and national loyalty.

Privatization will proceed even faster, education and healthcare will be made conditional to income, and an additional half million slaves [foreign workers] will be imported in order to lower the work conditions of the Mizrahim and Palestinians alike.

Thus, the Mizrahim can only loose from the kind of "peace" which Israel longs for. They will loose not only the faint hope for economic growth in their communities, but mainly they will loose the Palestinian ass which they were so good at kicking, and upon which they constructed their national identity - an identity built upon hating the Palestinians."