There's the Doctrine of Original Sin - I'm not strong in the theology area, but I think it's a Christian belief, that we are all born sinners, (and must be saved - whether by works or by grace is the argument which appears to divide christians in general from Fundamentalist Christians.) Baptism (rather than therapy) is key - Catholics, for instance, or at least my Irish grandmother, who went to mass every Sunday, believe that a child who dies unbaptized goes to Purgatory, and it requires intercession in the form of prayers and masses said, to get the poor babe out of Purgatory and into Heaven.

Even people who don't hold with the doctrine of original sin will usually agree that children need to be taught right from wrong, and even people who believe that children are naturally disposed towards goodness will usually agree that people who were badly parented will have a tendency to parent badly, resulting in children who grow up and teach their own children all the wrong things.

Most religions, it seems to me, deal with the concept of attaining grace or perfection or nirvana, rather than having grace or perfection or nirvana being your starting point, so for that reason I would say I think Martin's viewpoint on this is the more traditional one.    I think Amos' viewpoint is, historically speaking, far more radical.

I really have to think about this more. Amos, would you agree with the statement that we are what the world makes us?