Well in my view, Little Hawk, there's a huge difference between religion and spirituality. But John's question was about religion, and that's what I was addressing. I have never been hassled by any church, apart from hour-long natters on the doorstep with Jehovah's Witnesses (in which I believe I usually win the argument,though I haven't yet managed to convert a single one of them). I did in childhood fall under the spell of one or two outstanding people who happened to be Christians, and maybe I slipped briefly into the error of believing that their faith was a prerequisite for their decency.

If you really are convinced that I'm religious about something - anything - it can only be because you have Humpty Dumpty's way with words. ("When I use a word," Humpty Dumpty said in rather a scornful tone, "it means just what I choose it to mean - neither more nor less.")

Joe, nearly everything in what I posted was drawn from Dawkins. The paragraph I quoted referred to catholic nuns, which is perhaps unfortunate to the extent that if you follow the link you will see that all religions are in his sights. (As they are in mine.)

But to deal with your point, I'm cautious about generalising too widely. Certainly there are good folk and bad, but I should think that in all of the bad folk there's good, and in all of the good folk there's bad. How much the balance is swung by genes, circumstance etc, I ponder constantly without ever reaching a view, but I do believe these broad characteristics embrace us all, whatever our religions and beliefs. You don't have to be religious to be good, and being religious doesn't make you good.

Just to put your own singular experience in perspective, may I remind you that in Ireland many people still remember nuns as the monsters who ran the laundries to which unmarried mothers were luckless enough to be consigned as slaves. And you will be aware that the Christian Brothers have made a belated mass apology to the hundreds of people who, as deprived and orphaned youngsters, were abused in CB institutions - one example that stayed in my mind being that of 40 kids who battled to be first in line to clean their teeth because they all had to use the same toothbrush.

You yourself have acknowledged, Joe, that your own particular church is led by opportunist charlatans corrupted by power. What you might not be allowing for is that many in their flock lack the intelligence and confidence that is needed to challenge the deceit and resist the manipulation, as you are obviously prepared to do.