Sidewinder - your definition of the punk ethos implies that you've not listened to much of The Clash - or (far more likely) you're playing devil's advocate. There are a lot of people out there who pretend that they've put in no effort. Usually, if they get past the first tour, that's an illusion. I always thought the punk ethos was "we've not learned by any conservatoire rules, we just got hold of some instruments or used our voices and tried to work out what to do with them ..." Not the same as folk, but really not that radically opposed? Besides, people like Billy Bragg, Chumbawamba, the Pogues and the Levellers have a habit of rendering categories meaningless.