I would like to see some sources for the information in your 27 Mar 05 - 07:28 PM post, Allen.

No, I was talking about the rest of the country. They have no desire to be under Moslem or PA control.

If by "the rest of the country", you mean Israel proper, excluding the West Bank, Gaza, and East Jerusalem, I don't really think that is relevant to this discussion. At least not relevant to any points I have made in this discussion.

There was a general cessation of PALESTINIAN POLICE terrorist attacks (I think there were several). The terrorist organisations did kill people, and there were numerous attempts foiled daily. The Palestinian Police were supposed to nip the Hamas and Jihad in the bud, but didn't.

My understanding, based on quotes I've read from former Israeli government officials (including at least one former prime minister), among other people, is that some of the more extremist organizations did continue to try to disrupt the peace process, but that there was a pause in the kind of violence you are seeing at this time, during the period when the Palestinians had some hope for the outcome of the Oslo process. When Palestinians have hope, the majority of them just want to get on with their lives. When they have none, they are much more willing to resort to desperate measures.

BS. That's a ridiculous load of rubbish.

No it's not.

We have no intentions of forcing them to leave, I don't know where you got that from.

I didn't say "forcing" them to leave. I said "persuading" them to leave. Basically, that means making their lives so bloody miserable that they won't be able to justify staying. It's been the strategy all along. I got this information from quite a few Israeli Jews.

Anyway the shooting goes with what I was saying. If there was no need to sit in the West bank and Gaza, things like this would not occur.

The reason the IDF are in the territories is basically to protect the settlers, and to disrupt the lives of the Palestinians. Their presence does not in any way make Israel (the part not including the West Bank, Gaza, and East Jerusalem) more secure. In fact, it makes Israel a lot less secure. People still find ways of committing terrorist acts in Israel, and they have much more incentive to want to do so with the IDF and settler presence in the West Bank, Gaza, and East Jerusalem, making their lives such a hell.

Things are alos more complicated than they may appear

Yes, I am very aware of that. However, I tend to think I am more aware of what goes on within the West Bank, Gaza, and East Jerusalem than you are.

It was a savage affair as all fights in built-up areas are. They would not have needed to be in there in the first place if it weren't for the terrorists using it as a base. Just for the record which place are you talking about.

Are you refering to the incursions of 2002? I don't remember the name of the town in that particular case, but that case was hardly an isolated incident.

So's rocket fire and shootings and bombings against Israeli citizens with far less justification.

Rocket fire and shootings and bombings against Israeli citizens are wrong. But you are wrong about there being far less justification. The people in the West Bank, Gaza, and East Jerusalem have no human rights whatever. They are not even human beings in the eyes of the Israeli government and the IDF. If you were living under those conditions, I bet you'd be fighting just as hard, if not harder, to change that situation.

How does firing a rocket on Shderot or blowing up a bus defend their homes and livelihoods? That is not a justified defence, in fact it's not defence at all. It's murder. That's the violence I meant.

I can't justify it. But I can help you try to understand it. They want their freedom. They want Israel to leave them alone so they can get on with their lives. They have tried everything, and nothing has worked. My guess is that they are trying to make it too expensive for Israel (in terms of human costs) to continue to keep the Palestinians in the West Bank, Gaza, and East Jerusalem captive any longer.

We are not perfect, they are not perfect, it's a very complex situation that is breeding more and more evil. The first step should be cessation of terrorism against civilians. That should come before all else.

That won't work. That plan sets everyone up to fail. The Israeli government first has to give the Palestinians something to hope for. And then it has to give them a good faith reason to believe that they can rely on the Israeli government to deliver on its promises.

If you could send me those documents, I'll be glad to read. Only when it suits you though. No rush.

Probably not this coming week. I have quite a lot of work to do this coming week. But I will get to it when I can.