So, is this a thread about the pope or a thread about me?

Good point Esteban Sykes. Although your honesty will piss off most of the Mudcat loyalists.

I find it just bizarre that nearly everyone here thinks JP wasn't a great man for what he DID have influence over, which is the teachings of the church that affected billions of people (birth control, ordination of women, cohabitation of couples, racism and sexism around the world, accepting gays and lesbians into the church, divorce, etc) but was a great man for what he DIDN'T have any influence over (wars, detente and the collapse of Soviet communism, the arms race, etc.)

I mean, to use a yardstick of greatness to measure a man who clearly doesn't match up to it seems phony to me. People think he's great because he is a celebrity, first and foremost. Not a holy man, a celebrity. Or as they keep saying on TV "a rock star pope".

People succumb to the emotional appeals of the celebrity driven media about this stuff. Just like with Princess Diana. Remember all the people that said "what a great woman, she did so many great things for the world" and then couldn't really name anything she herself had accomplished? Same thing with this pope. He travelled alot. He accepted Bono at the Vatican, and they talked about shoes. He was charismatic. People were in awe of him, but he was really just a regular guy.

Anytime someone like this dies, the majority of people, regardless of their relationship to the deceased, go into icon worship mode, as this thread illustrates. If you read through this thread again, you will see people say "he was a great man, even though...." and then list all the things that undermines the assertion that he was "great".

So let me say these very nice things about the pope. He wasn't a tyrant in the sense of a Saddam Hussein or a George W. Bush. He (thankfully) had no armed forces, and his security detail got better over time. He was very famous, and knew how to rub elbows with the richest, most famous, and most powerful people in the world. He had great shoes.

As a leader of his flock, I just plain can't see where he gave the majority of them what they so desperately needed in life, but which his position demands in spades: dignity.