The problem with anecdotal evidence, Sally, is that for every story you or Doug can produce of happiness, I can produce 10 of abuse, some with tragic consequences. My point of view is steeped in personal experience as a union organizer and community activist in the towns where these events happened. When you have folks of divergent views, such as Hubby and Doug, and myself then one must look to the evidence. This is why Ron's point of view carries more weight in the discussion, in my view, than yours or Doug's. It has cites and they come from a journal that would be more inclined to support business interests than not. I mean no offence when I say that, but yours and Doug's are based on a "he said, she said" approach.

Or you can listen to people that castigate a whole life's work with comments about "pimps and whores", or one who refers to body parts, when they can't come up with a decent argument.

I will say that I can at least respect Susu's Hubby. His arguments are philosophical, and he makes no pretense otherwise. He and I come from different points of view. He isn't pretending to be something he is not, and comes at it straight. I imagine I would enjoy drinks and lively conversation were I ever to meet him.

The other ignorant person I would have to avoid or I might have to teach him what a fat Irish boy can do, musically and otherwise.

Mick