Yeah, Shambles, it's a lot about winnin' or loosin' battles... Battles don't have to be physical... Many of us battline mightilly in the lead up to the Bush invasion of Iraq to frame the issues differently than the Bush war PR machine waas doing... We lost the battle though, as time has shown we were a lot more correct in out thinking that Bush and his gang was with theirs...

Eveyday, those of us on the progrssive side have to battle the current framing of lies and half-truths by the Bush folks... Yeah, it is a fight and there are winners and loosers but a fight none the less... Most of the time when the progressive side loses the battle people suffer more than if we had won battle... I guess that what makes us progeressives... We fight for the betterment of mankind and the other side fights for power and greed and, yeah, make no bones about it, it is a fight...

Martin Luther King was the fighter of our generation and from his many battles, won or lost, mankind is better off from his many battles...

Peace and justice don't just happen...

And, John, I wasn't lamently any inability to win... Reread the end of my post above whwere I made the analogy of using cropped up anonomus statistics... This is cowardly... It's lazy and, all it does, is protect the posters little ego...

Hey, the progressives know when they have been "out-framed" on an issue, even when we know in our hearts that we hold the correct position but we regroup and try another way to make our point...

Alot of Bushites here don't... They just hit the blue clicky thing that really has nuthin' to do with the discussion.. It is diversionary...

Bobert