....I tried earlier to make a weak joke in the midst of all this, but I see that there is no way to keep it to that....I have been sitting here, arms folded in front of the screen for 30 minutes, trying to think what, or IF, I should all to it all. I have been in this forum for 3 years, like Joe, and I am very sad that it has come to this.

I was, frankly, startled that Joe said what he did, as I have met Joe in person and, although I knew he was upset at some things, I didn't think he'd say it 'openly'.

Is he right? *sigh*..yeah, sort of..Is katlaughing right about HER 'rights' and feelings...yeah, sort of...Is gargoyle right about HIS gripes and sore points...yeah, sort of...Is Margo? Is sophocleese? sure...we ALL have some truth in what we believe and feel....however......

There is an *art* to being right, that is, to saying what you are convinced is 'true' and 'fair' and 'reasonable' in a gentle and non-provocative way, and it seems to be a dying art. Gargoyle made HIS splash by making HIS points rudely and hatefully...and many here said so. Others have responded in kind, and thus made it worse. Some have tried to defuse things with wit and soothing posts, saying "there, there, kiddies..lets all be friends". But backs are now up, and no one will back down.

Don't you see?..This VERY DISCUSSION is driving the wedge deeper...and here I am trying to find a way to say

" you are ALL right...and also ALL wrong"

....Joe knows he can't 'stop' the BS posts...this place is like a big, open park- where people can do whatever they like short of murder and mayhem....all one can do is plead for a bit of restraint and awareness of the stated purpose of the place.

but statements like this.."frankly, I don't care how they did it way back when"...*sigh*, seem to me to be pretty heavy, in ANY context.

When a bunch of people are in the same area, they ALL must attempt to be conscious of how what they do affects others...Joe's example of the classroom.." the rest of the kids in the class are having a great time with a spitball war, and the teacher gets distracted and doesn't say anything of value." is pretty close to how it is.

Yes, I know, you can always 'choose' to not read a thread, or not respond, but in a park, if YOU want a quiet discussion and others are throwing balls and playing loud radios right around you, it is VERY difficult to ignore...and after all, the ball players have their rights!..(cynicism implied)

some threads I can, and do ignore..."healing and religion" are usually so marked, and I just dont bother with them...I do NOT think this is the place for it, but I have, mostly, ignored it. I cannot avoid, however noticing them in the list, and it does prickle and irritate. I do not see how personal things of that nature are anything more than prosyletizing in a forum like this....in this country, we have 'freedom of religion', a wonderful thing. But, implied in the concept of "freedom of religion" is that freedom FROM religion for those that so choose is also a right. So...what should one DO when one has a genuine need and desire to discuss and participate in religious and arcane concepts like 'healing' that not everyone appreciates?..It is possible today to have, free for the asking, a web site of your own..INCLUDING scripts to run a discussion forum!!!! Ask Alice..(in Montana) how it is done...then in here, if you want others to join you, you could make a BRIEF MENTION of the address, and the discussion or healing group could 'do it's business' there.

I am a member of a group whose charter says that what they do is "collect wood"...yet, some of the major players and old timers in the group are devout, born again Christian fundamentalists///and when I attend a meeting, EVERYONE is expected to stand and bow their heads while someone asks JESUS to bless us all. No one asks if there are any Jews or Muslims...or atheists present, and they will NOT just keep it to a ' moment of silence'..Yes, I do what most do...I stand there, saying nothing, and seething...and yes, it is my right to NOT attend the meetings...just as I am able to NOT open certain threads here...

well, I seem to have picked up a bit of steam in my misguided effort to post a concilitory and non-partisan message...*shaking my head*....I don't know if anyone has noticed, but I have been in here a lot less in recent months, and if you do, as katlaughing suggests "going Back to the Future of Threads for some good ole' reads.. ", you will find some names which simply are not here anymore...several have said PUBLICLY why they left, others never said...I suspect THIS sort of thing helped some decide.

I think this will be my only public posting in this matter...anyone who wishes may contact me if they need clarification of my ramblings.

"O wad some Power the giftie gie us
To see oursels as inthers see us!
It wad frae monie a blunder free us,
An' foolish notion;
What airs in dress an' gait wad lea'e us,
An' ev'n devotion!