BeardedBruce:

I have found on my nearly fifty year walk, mostly by my own actions, that the arguing of ones position by employing the technique of abuse and denigration of one's adversary may indeed produce the desired results but it rarely, if ever, produces acceptance of the alternate view.

"You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink."

At some point, Bruce, you have to accept the fact that the folks you're talking to may be Limbaughesque DittoBots, and are impervious to either reason or facts. Normal discourse then becomes an exercise in micturation, and it's not going to hurt your case too much by engaging in "abuse and denigration".

Find me someone willing to acknowledge the fact that Dubya's a serial liar (a demonstrable fact), and there may be hope for a real discussion. As long as they refuse to admit even elemental facts as a basis for discussion, and I don't think that one may hope for more than playground "discussion".

Cheers,