Of course you're right Joe, and I'm not questioning the validity of the debate, never have. What I was trying to say that when a troubled person is "in the act" of committing violence, their troubles and their opinions are of no consequence "at that moment". When that moment is over we can talk. Since you mention evil, yeah that is what I was talking about referring to understanding child molesters. If someone is truly evil (which I am very cautious about saying and I've only known one personally, other than some of my former clients) then their ideas on other subjects may indeed be valid and interesting but if they express themselves with violence they are not worth the trouble that it would take, even if it were possible, to understand them or even put up with them. I don't think it's possible, not with a mind that is either shaped by nature or by some civilized aspect of culture. Not many people can out-liberal me, but actively cruel people are their own problem, not mine. Just not interested.

Chet