Azizi, I think Gervase's neighbour is about the norm - very few people anywhere actually know where a saying originated. And I can't tell you categorically if it refers to the 'Hambone' song, which I know of from growing up in Canada. However, it's entirely possible that it WAS known, as there are quite a few songs in the Welsh (language) repertoire which have come from the States. More specifically, they were carried back and forth by people who emmigrated from here and, often enough, returned. Some people emmigrated and returned a few times; we forget that, by the 19th century, emmigration didn't necessarily mean you never saw home again. One of the all time favourite Welsh 'sing-along' songs is 'Moliannwn' (Let us Praise) which was brought back to Wales by Benjamin Thomas, a 'country poet', who worked from time to time in the quarries of Vermont, Upstate New York and Quebec, and he learned it from a Minstrel Show performance.

There was also a tremendous vogue for the Black and White Minstrel Shows here in Britain and there are Welsh songs which evolved from Welsh people attending these performances in large cities like Liverpool.

So, as I said, it isn't impossible that they new the 'Hambone' reference.

Re: Taff, I would agree with you, Azizi. There are layers of meaning when someone uses "Taff" or any other such label. My cousin Ifor (EEvore) lives in Leicestershire and is called Taff, which he prefers to having his real name mis-pronounced. And in this case it's his friends and workmates using it and it simply means that he's perceived as Welsh. (Tho not from Cardiff; I think it's only Welsh people who make that distinction.) But there are certainly situations where I would find 'Taf' - and 'Taffy' even more - offensive.

And about the matter of sub-sections of 'White-ness', I wonder if this is another cultural difference between the USA and elsewhere? This sectioning is quite normal to me as a Canadian, who grew up with the concept of "Cultural Mosaic" (each culture different, but contributing to the whole picture) in Canada, and the USA's concept of "Melting Pot", which I always understood to mean becoming uniquely American (although I'm obviously open to correction).

And Snuffy's 'spot on' in my opinion re: Cardiff and the Valleys. It's their own version of Hambones vs Town Trash.

Ah - the undying traditions!

sian