LH: That last sentence is truly a sign of great cynicism.   As I said earlier we have to put things into the perspective of the time--

Goldwater at the time seemed quite the hard line Hawk compared to others. The sands of time have shifted things again and now, not in hindsight but by today's standards, seems the realist. His grandaughter has written a new bio on him

As to Kerry v Bush--well, as to staying in Iraq I think that there you have the problem of someone getting us into a fine mess (As Stan Laurel used to tell Oliver Hardy) and were Kerry elected--or anyone else--it was not feasable to just get out. The fat (not from Pork) was in the fire. It being so the decision to exit has to be thought out and evolved. Something that an administration refuses to acknowledge subterfuge and mistakes would be incapable of doing. As an earlier writer noted--from my favorite musical duo Gilbert & Sullivan---Things Are Seldom What They Seem.   

Actually Bush seems more like the PooBah character---if I say something is so it does not have to be in fact because my saying it makes it so and, therefore, it really does not have to be so since it is stated that it is. ( paraphrase from Mikado on the non-beheading of KoKo).

I heartily recommend all to watch this segment by Oberman ( if you have not seen it---and hopefully this link will work) that was sent to me by a person I trust and respect      

http://websrvr20.audiovideoweb.com/avwebdswebsrvr2143/news_video/ClintonInterview512K.mov

I guess this discussion has veered as most do from the original intent and which, I believe, I addressed with some historical and personal reminiscences. But--this thread like political sands shift.

Bill Hahn