"Whatever your final tally may be; add another 10,000 displaced Iraqis and you get a far better idea about the devastation in Iraq." - dianavan

News of further improvement must be welcomed - on the other thread where displaced Iraqi's are mentioned it was hundreds of thousands, it's now ten's of thousands but that is surely better than the millions that existed under Saddam's rule.

In that other thread, dianavan mentioned the contribution made by Iran in sheltering refugees and referred to the Iranian census taken in 2001. The refugee's sheltering in Iran in that census in 2001 mentioned by dianavan would primarily have been made up of:
- Kurdish refugees fleeing from Saddam Hussein
- Ma'adan Shia (Marsh Arabs) refugees fleeing from Saddam Hussein
- Tajik Afghan refugees fleeing from the Taleban

As for Ciggy's "questions"

Ciggy Question 1:
"That is, 13,700 people dead in reported roadside bombs and car bombs. That, I take it, does not include those killed as a direct result of Coalition action - just from 'internal causes' that you insist do not represent an incipient civil war."

Answer to Ciggy Question 1:
No Ciggy go and take the trouble to read The Washington Post article. The figures given by AP and a collection of Iraqi Ministries identifies those killed in all types of reported incidents on the day of the incident. Those incidents include road side bombings and car bombs, but they do not include those people injured in such incidents who died later (i.e. not on the same day - OK Snaps)

Ciggy Question 2:
"Since April 2003 that amounts to nearly 700 people a month. With your military experience, do you consider this an acceptable bodycount for what has been achieved in Iraq?"

Answer to Ciggy Question 2:
All things considered, I would say that given the potential for taking life, 700 a month is very much on the low side of what it could be - after all Ciggy, if Saddam held to his lower average the number killed per month would be 4620.

Ciggy Question 3 (Complete with two question marks):
"13,700 people. By your own admission, at least 13,700 people. It is as if the entire population of a town like Sidmouth had been removed from the map. And for what?
Please, Terry, do remind us what - apart from the removal of the Ba'ath party from power - has been achieved in Iraq?"

Answer to Ciggy Question 3:
Now let's see Ciggy, how about closure of all outstanding matters relating to United Nations Security Council Resolutions relating to Iraq? How about one less sponsor of international terrorism in the area? Tell me Ciggy what do you think Saddam's reaction would have been to what is happening in Iran at present if he was still in power?

Ciggy Question 4:
"What were the monthly body counts from similar causes in Germany in the three years after it was liberated from dictatorship?"

Answer to Ciggy Question 4:
No idea Ciggy, although hunger, disease and weather conditions must have taken a toll, there was no armed insurrection. Now had you asked me about Greece Ciggy, there's a completely different story, and much nearer as a point of comparison. In the four years following 1945, in Greece there was an insurrection, there was a civil war. The "body counts" were as follows:
- Killed 50,777
- Wounded 37,732
- Missing 4,526

Ciggy on the killed body count alone that amounts to a monthly total of 1058. Oh yes Ciggy, on this "civil war" in Iraq, could you please enlighten us as to who the combatants are?

Ciggy Question 5:
"And would such rates justify our attacking Ahmadinejad in Iran, or Kim jong Il in North Korea?"

Answer to Ciggy Question 5:
As far as I am aware neither Ahmadinejad in Iran, or Kim jong Il in North Korea have been threatened by anyone let alone attacked. Apart from which what on earth would monthly fatality figures in Iraq have to do with either?