Ah, the finer points of discourse. I have SEEN flying spaghetti. There's even a dried piece stuck on my kitchen ceiling (well there WAS until SHE saw it) and Monsters a-plenty, BUT....! Shudder!

re Grab: see the original post. I stated upfront that God is a faith propostion and can only be a faith propsition. The Judaic-Christian tradition/experience/concept is 100% faith. "Without faith, you cannot please Him." "By faith are ye saved, through grace and that not of yourself. It is a gift from God lest any man should boast." "Whatsoever is not of faith is sin." "He is faithful and just to keep us from all unrighteousness." etc.

Thus far, in scientific endeavor there seems to be an infinite regression where cause and effect are concerned. The search for the unmoved mover.

There was an article in SA a few years ago that asked the question whether the universe and reality were digital? Complexity from utter simplicity. My argument wasn't that complexity doesn't necessarily stem from the simple. William's razor is a 3D insturment that works quite well in the 3D world on questions of human reason and HOW it all works. It is NOT an insturment (necessarily) for spiritual knowledge. In fact we have all made pretty good cases that the spritual realm and the physical realm are all but mutually exclusive. This is why the attribute of transcendence is applied to God.

The ontological argument goes something like, "Because I can conceive of Unicorns (or Flying Spaghettis Monsters) they must exist." And of course, that is fallacious reasoning, according to rules of logic (i.e., "reasoning", i.e., question begging in and of itself).

Sorry, I have an interruption, More later but I'll post this so I don't lose it.

Tom