OK, leaving invective and insults aside, and having danced around what I believe to be the real issue, I think the thread has at last begun to touch on it: Numbers of punters. Bums on seats. And the "folk club scene as we know it" and the undoubted changes taking place trust me on this, they are, and I don't even know the half of it myself.

Because the problem is not about fees for artists versus club survival. Neither is it as simple a choice between 20 people at £10 or 50 people at £4 or 80 people at £2.50 - this implies a straight and exclusive correlation between entry cost and number of people, which we know it isn't true. How do we know it? I can name clubs within 15 miles of each other where one has consistently 70-80 people (and sometimes 100 or more) at £10 and the other struggles to bring in 15 punters at £2.50. Clearly there are other factors involved also.

Behind the bristling and the language, I believe countess richard has actually a very decent grasp of what is happening and the forces at play - she is well-placed to know that through her numerous contacts and her experience in the folk scene as a reviewer and researcher. One may argue that she may throw shit around higgledy-piggledy sometimes, but she does not talk crap (and I am not being condescending, countess, hand on heart I just want people to pay attention to some of your points that I believe to be very valid).

So what are those other factors? And what are the changes to the folk scene that are taking place? Some time ago I started a thread on this, called The Future of Folk Clubs or something like that, but it inevitably lost its way amidst people's backs getting rubbed up the wrong way and people's wish to simply state what they know from their 30 mile-radius experience. What is needed is some thinking, putting facts together rather than comparing them to each other, in an attempt to identify the patterns. And then each club, organiser and artist can make up their own minds as to where in this new scene they wish to play a part.

Anyway, this thread is not the right one for the discussion I haqve in mind. I will start another one, titled "UK folk scene - do clubs have a future, and how to secure it". Bit it will have a LONG preamble, so gimme a little time to compose it.