The Mudcat Café TM
Thread #100473   Message #2020544
Posted By: Nickhere
09-Apr-07 - 01:15 PM
Thread Name: BS: Have you changed your religious views?
Subject: RE: BS: Have you changed your religious views?
Bee: "But when I look at places in the world where deaths and horrible diseases and dreadful injuries occur en masse, due to wars or intense poverty or famine, it becomes impossible for me to think that this is part of some plan"

Yes, I think you're right. It is not part of God's plan that we suffer horribly. On the contrary He would like us to lead happy fulfilled lives. Christians believe that the best way to do that is to discover and follow God's plan for each of us individually. My point was that these horrible things stem from our misuse of our free will to do evil acts, not from God.

"that this is placing blame on entire suffering nations of people (many of whom are Christian) - they must not have really accepted Christ, as good things have not come to them"

I was actually referring to my own personal experience, as I explained. I was trying to add a personal note about my experience of prayer. I personally found that, not following God's plan for me seemed to get me nowhere, and indeed into many bad places, but following it seemed to bring the good things I hankered after. I'm not looking down on anyone here (Christ told us not to judge) but I cannot ignore my own experience either.

I think we have already agreed that good things can happen to people who have not accepted Christ - we have already agreed on this thread that "In the world, we see no correlations like good people get good things, bad people get bad things. God told us prayer had some point, that we would get help from prayer: patently untrue (Bee)"
But Christians see two differences: 1) they do not judge 'good things' as being material successes alone (Ok, apart from Weber's "Protesant Ethic and Spirit of Capitalism") so that someone who reaches the top of the pile in career and riches isn't necessarily sucessful or has had good thinsg happen to them in a Christian sense. 2) The most important thing for Christians is salvation. Good things for us are the things that lead to it, bad things are the things that lead away from it. Thus as Christians, we believe ultimately that those who have not accepted Christ as a saviour will lose out on the most important things in life.

But before anyone rushes to judge me on that statement could I say that those who do not accept Christ might be quite satisfied in the lives they lead and quite sucessful according to their own criteria, and of course that's their right.

Amos: "Such an entity -- the ultimate Cause of Universe -- is not going to worry about you touching your peepee or whether or not the West Coast falls into the ocean on some third-rate ball of mud stuck on the fringes of a second-rate galaxy somewhere"

Actually, according to the New Testament, you're wrong on this one. God actually does give a hoot about what happens to each one of us, in detail. Jesus said "Are not five sparrows sold for two pennies? Yet not one of them is forgotten by God. Indeed the very hairs of your heads are numbered. Don't be afraid; you are worth more than many sparrows" (Luke: 12:6-7)
How does any of us know that even in bad times God isn't trying to look out for us? Perhaps those bad times could have been worse if God hadn't been trying to mitigate them. I have already pointed out how He cannot actually stop people from committing evil acts without taking away their free will and reducing them to automatons. Once again, death isn't the total loss for Christians that it might seem to others. Indeed Christ says on the same topic: "I tell you do not be afraid of those who kill the body and after that can do no more. Fear him, who after the kiling has the power to throw you into hell" (Luke 12:4-5)

It is one of the devil's nastiest manouvres to stir people up to violence and hatred and killing and then have them blame it on God