Well, Amos...that was an elegant and insightful post back the at 11:35. It really expresses the way we really OUGHT to be viewing ourselves and our relation to the universe.

I really can't blame you for deciding not to continue trying to debate with Nickhere, though, as he is a prime example of the way of dealing with these issues that I have described before..."first you take the dart or arrow and place in the target by hand...then you draw the bullseye."

Nickhere...what I mean is, that you BEGIN with the premises that 1) God does exist. 2)That he does concern himself with our everyday affairs, and 3) The the Christian Bible **IS** God's literal word about his opinions and rules.
Perhaps #3 should be first in the list, but no matter. The whole point is that we KNOW the Bible was written down by men, that the specific scrolls included in it were chosen by men, translated by men, and are now interpreted by men.....many of whom disagree seriously about the details. What we are believing, therefore, is the man who CLAIM that they 'got it from God'...and since men have so VERY many reasons, some honest, some dishonest, to lie, fabricate, embroider and embellish what actually happened, and that 2000+ years of embellishment and interpretation of already dubious data doesn't feel very convincing to some of us.

   There is no doubt the Bible is *important* in human history, as are many other religious texts, but telling me what Jesus said, if I am not convinced that Jesus was more than a charismatic guy with a good line, is rather useless.
(I had the experience of having Jehovah's Witnesses explain their theology, and defend parts by reading me Bible verses. I explained that *I* did not accept the Bible as 'authority'. Frustrated, they went away, but returned in a few days with a 'more experienced' elder, who tried to resolve my objections by reading me different Bible verses!)

So...I, too, feel much as Amos does on the matter. You, honest and friendly and reasonable as you are, have COMMITTED yourself to one viewpoint,(placing the dart) and are now interpreting all relevant issues in light of that committment, (drawing the bulleye), and insinuating by that logic that Amos & I..and everyone else, 'ought' to play the game on your dartboard.

*smile*...that's a pretty heavy claim, whether done in a quiet, friendly manner, as you have done, or in a hostile, demanding manner as 'some' we see today are doing....or even in a scary, guilt-laden manner as the guys who write the "Left Behind" books are doing.

Sorry...but if God gave me the mental faculties to read and reason see these inconsistencies, he needs to pop in more often and explain what I'm missing....I'm willing to listen, but I'm a tough nut to crack!