The Mudcat Café TM
Thread #101746   Message #2057794
Posted By: InOBU
21-May-07 - 01:42 PM
Thread Name: BS: Bobby Sands hunger strike film
Subject: RE: BS: Bobby Sands hunger strike film
Well, hello, dear friendTeribus:

In spite of the use of insults, which I don't think add to your points, you do approach this from a stand point which is informed and well put. It makes for a good way to organize a response, and thank you. I'd have another point of view on most, but as me da used to say, "that's what makes for horse racing," which is a better way to deal with all this than war ... but I will start with the last point first.

I would hope to see a film about Mrs. Jean McConville, well researched and with input from all sides. I think the only way forward is a truth and reconciliation process that begins with talk. A short aside, I was being interviewed on a radio station, on some subject or another, not Ireland, in fact ... and just before me there was a member of a loyalist paramilitary group, so we were in the greenroom together. No one would go over to him, so I brought him a cup of tea, and we sat down together. He and I chatted about the weather and New York, and he told me that he felt in a place that was not very friendly, as the radio station was progressive and he had no one there who felt as he did, and he was glad to meet an Irish Protestant to make him feel at home. I explained that he and I had very different politics, but welcome anyway. He was rather surprised and asked why I came over to welcome him, and I told him peace has to start with a cup of tea together, at least.

To speak to your points:
Point One and Two:

The laws of the northern counties of Ireland of which you speak, were in violation of the Irish constitution at the time Robert Sands was alive. The constitution of Ireland came about due to a war resulting from the 1911 election, and did not recognize six of the nine counties of Ulster, as by the treaty with Britain, which ended the 1919 Anglo Irish war, after two years, the occupation of any part of Ireland by Britain was illegal. In short, in the treaty ended that war, Britain was to withdraw from the six northern counties in two years, and did not. Sands was a member of an insurgent group with an unbroken chain of command to that war which established the Irish Republic. Even after the 1922 civil war, the Irish Republic continued to recognize the northern counties as legally a part of Ireland, and Sands could have held an Irish passport.

Point Three:

There has been armed resistance to British occupation of Ireland in every generation since Strongbow, and so to exclude times of "armed civil unrest or rebellion" would be impossible, there has never been peace in Ireland. So, to not include the murder, by Arthur Chitchester of hundreds of men woman and children around Dungannon during the Nine Years War, or the murder of Carol Ann Kelly during the 1980s, would give a distorted view of Irish history. Every generation has watched British soldiers kill Irish people to maintain control in Ireland.
The period from the nineteen sixties to the nineteen eighties has been carefully examined in the United States, not in the "bars of Boston," but in the federal courts of the United States. I would have you read the trial record of the case of Joseph Patrick Doherty. In that case, the Executive Branch of the US government, and the government of Great Britain, with virtually unlimited resources sought the extradition of Doherty, on the claim that he was a terrorist who had committed murder in the death of Captain Westmacott of the SAS. Joe Dohert'y legal representation had almost no resources, and in the end the fight bankrupted the small firm. What they had on their side was the evidence.
Pay records of the IRA where presented as well as witnesses to Irish history, IRA training manuals, and newspaper accounts. The US courts, who were bias against Doherty, but where, in fact, neutral, in the end found that the IRA did not target civilians as a primary target of war, but that loyalists and the British army did. In the end, the executive branch of the US government changed the laws governing extradition to Britain, to deny the ability to respondents to extradition to put British actions on trial. It should be noted that this change in the ability to access courts was done, not because anyone was threatened, but because our two nations wished to keep certain truths under wraps.

Point four (the numeration systems ends here) ?

Tony O'Hara got no benefit from NORAID, which only served the PIRA, Tony was a member of the INLA, which had its roots separately in the OIRA. But, yes, you are right, NORAID did not aid all victims of violence in the war. I agree it would be a good thing if there was such an organization, as part of a truth and reconciliation process, as all victims of violence need a lot of support.

Point Five (ish)

I'm not sure of your point about DeValera. As you say, he carried neutrality to the point of the ridiculous, when he sent condolences to the German government at the death of hitler. Where I believe in expressing human sympathy for the death of the worst of us, he did not do so with an even hand. During the Civil War, there were terrible atrocities on both sides, the Free State forces, for example, tied a number of republicans to a land mine in Balliseedy, in Kerry and detonated it, killing most. I believe the civil war could have, and should have been avoided, but there was a complex political dynamic, not free of involvement by British pressure in that event.

In the US, when there is a trial where there is a threat, even a hint of a threat to the jury, in Mob trials and now in political trials, the identities of the jury are held secrete. It would not have been impossible to have juries behind a screen, and brought from secrete locations to insure justice. But, as I said, the magistrates in the northern counties would not even agree to three judge panels. As to, "Rules of evidence however were never compromised,"
that is simply not the case. Evidence taken under torture is the most untrustworthy of any evidence and one could be convicted on the unsupported testimony of a single police officer. Most civil jurisdictions would say, that in such a case, rules of evidence where nonexistent in the diplock courts.        

All the best, slan,
Is mise, le meas
lor