"There was next to no support for the civil rights movement outside of the nationalists communities of the north of Ireland." - Den, 22 May 07 - 12:10 PM

I don't know where you were at the time Den, certainly in the UK there was widespread support for the NICRM and the hardline "Unionsts", Ian Paisley in particular, were treated as a bit of a joke and objects of derision. Mind you I can only speak for myself and those I knew at that time.

InOBU please do not put words into my mouth then attempt to take me to task over them.

"You, (correct me if I am wrong) believe that the Irish are simply evil minded and murderous" - InOBU

I will correct you InOBU. When have I EVER made such a statement or claim - If you cannot find an example of me having done so, you at least should retract that statement and apologise for having made it. I certainly do believe that the paramilitaries who were active in Northern Ireland, mainland UK and elsewhere were evil minded, murderous bastards and evidence to support that point of view is plain to see.

I do not believe that I have ever stated an opinion on the Zulu nation. In their heyday they were regarded, by many, as being barbaric, they actually traded on that reputation. Maybe you should read a little of their history, particularly that of their founder Shaka Zulu, read about what he did in the aftermath of his favourite wife's death (It most certainly was not pleasant, or the action of any civilised human being). Also take a good look at his attitude to vanquished foes born from his own experiences when he and his mother evaded an attempt on his life.

India, again I have not mentioned India in this thread, but you and other Americans that I have heard on the subject, seem rather ill informed. For a start India was never a British colony, your original thirteen states were, take a look at the differences. India was not brutally suppressed by the British, if you believe that it was, can you please explain how less than one thousand civil servants were able to administer the entire sub-continent of more than 350 million people for the best part of 200 years. India at the moment is poised to become a world super-power, it is debatable that it (India) economically will surpass the Chinese purely by dint of the fact that more Indians speak what is commonly accepted as being the international language. The foundation of India's economic potential was British investment in India during the days of the Raj.

On the Irish trawlers, I believe that it was you who tried to convey that they were being pulled under by the dozen by evil 'Brit' submarines placing "listening devices" on the seabed to keep track of Soviet submarines. I, on the other hand, referred you to, and quoted from, a report issued by an independent body who had studied the issue (Celtic League) which concluded that in total over a period of 20 years there were twenty incidents where submarines may, or may not, have been involved in the disappearance of fishing vessels from Ireland, Scotland, Wales, Cornwall and Brittany. Those twenty incidents did not all occur in Irish waters. As to violating Irish territorial waters I would be interested in hearing why they would do such a thing? I know for certain that we (The RN) did violate Russian territorial waters during the "Cold War" having been there and done that, but that was because there, there were things we wanted to look at and listen to. Hell's teeth anything similar in Ireland all one would have to do would be to buy a ferry ticket and go off as a tourist. The Celtic League's report however did draw attention to the fact that at the end of the Cold War and the dismemberment of the USSR and the subsequent withdrawal of US and Soviet submarines from the waters of the British Isles the number of incidents declined "dramatically" (Their expression).

On torture, holding ones feet to the fire, you claim to know people who were tortured by the 'Brits', people who have told you of their experiences - Good for them. Now do you know any who were tortured by any of the paramilitary organisations who were active during "The Troubles", they all most certainly did torture people, but the main difference was that people tended not to survive the process. At the time the UK Government could be hauled to the court at Strazbourg, the paramilitaries could not. But as a lawyer InOBU you should be aware that things have changed, and that now members of the likes of the INLA, PIRA, UDF, et al, can. Which explains SF and the PIRA's stance regarding the abduction, torture and murder of Mrs Jean McConville - you see that is not covered by the GFA, her murder is still on the books and Mr Adams may yet be brought to account for it as I believe that he most certainly gave the order sanctioning the "operation".

A more balanced world Lorcan? From what you have written you wouldn't know one if it jumped up and bit you on the arse.