This thread caught my attention as I'm interesting in "guesstimating" when certain children's rhymes were composed based on their references to famous people, events, and other "internal evidence". I'm also interested in documenting the meaning of certain words and phrases in specific rhymes that become clear once the references to actual events are known.

In his 09 Sep 03 - 08:48 AM post, McGrath of Harlow wrote "...all that a reference to a particular event or name can prove is that any version of the song that includes that does not precede a particular date".

If I understand this point correctly, it means that if a rhyme {or a song} includes a referent to an actual event, we know that it couldn't have been composed before that event occurred. Is that what you meant?

For example, I'm thinking about a "family" of children's rhymes that obliquely refer to an actual occurrence involving the pop singer Michael Jackson.

Here's two versions of that rhyme:

Down by the river near the hankey pank where the bullfrogs jump from bank, to bank, and they say E I O U, your momma stinks and so do you so ping pong ding dong your daddy smells like king kong. Ask your teacher what she wears, polka dotted underwear. Not too big and not too small, just the size of city hall. Michael Jackson went to town, coca-cola brought him down. Coca-cola brought him up, now he's drinking 7up. 7up with no cafiene, now he's seein' belgain (pronounced beligene). Belgain is outta sight, now we're talking dynamite. 10, 9, 8, 7, 6, 5, 4, 3, 2, 1, BAM!
-Veggie; 8/21/2006 http://www.cocojams.com/taunting_rhymes.htm

-snip-

Down by the banks with the hanky pank
where the bullfrogs jump from bank to bank
singing eips ieps oops umps chilly willy ding dong
I pledge allegiance to the flag
michael jackson makes me gag
Coca Cola burns his butt
now we're talking 7-up
7-up has no caffeine
now we're talking beligene
beligene is out of sight
now we're talking dynamite
tic, toc, tic, toc, tic, toc boom!

GUEST,Allison; Date: 20 Feb 07 - 06:49 PM
http://mudcat.org/thread.cfm?threadid=94034&messages=88; RE: Origins: Down by the Banks of the Hanky Panky

In my opinion, both of these rhymes are made up of two independent rhymes. In both of these rhymes, it is the second part of the rhyme which refers to an actual "historical" event. In the first rhyme presented, the second part of the rhyme begins with the line "Michael Jackson Went To Town". In the second rhyme presented, the second part of the rhyme begins with "I Pledge Allegiance To The Flag". In both these examples, the second part of the rhyme obliquely immortalizes an incident that occurred on Jan 27, 1984 during R&B superstar's Michael Jackson's taping of a Pepsi-Cola commercial. Twenty five year old Michael Jackson was singing his hit song "Billy Jean" when sparks from the fireworks that were supposed to be shown in the background of the commercial accidentally set Jackson's greasy 'jheri curled' hair on fire.

Given this information about this "historical incident", at least those two parts of those rhymes can be dated to be no earlier than Jan 27, 1984. Furthermore, given information about that accident during the soft drink commercial, it is possible to understand where the lines "coca-cola brought him down" in the one rhyme, and "Coca Cola burns his butt" in the second rhyme came from. Also, knowing that Michael Jackson was singing his hit song "Billy Jean" when the mishap occurred, the lines "now he's seein' belgain", "now we're talking beligene" and "beligene is out of sight" are understandable. If this information wasn't known, we might assume that these rhymes meant nothing at all. But instead, "belgain" and "beligene" are examples of the folk process at work, and these rhymes are wonderful examples of how children's rhymes may document and provide commentary about historical events.