Well, here's an opinion which might carry some weight. It's from an interview by columnist Bill Nemitz (Portland Sunday Telegram, June 24, 2007) with a World War II Marine veteran from the battle for Okinawa. Dave Astor, 87, knows a thing or two about loyalty, and about fulfilling your mission. And about keeping your reservations to yourself:

"I've never said this publicly," Ames said over coffee Thursday morning. "I was so proud of the Marines when they first dashed through Iraq. And then I said, well, be patient ... be patient." And now?

"And now my patience is gone. It's useless. It's come to the stage after four and a half years that we're worse off than we were then."

And so, on this day he'd planned to commemorate the victory in Okinawa (62 years ago), Astor found himself saying something altogether different about Iraq.

"I think we should just declare victory," he said. "And then get out of there."

And how would he define vicotry? The old Marine, who never thought he'd hear himself say this, didn't flinch.

"Easy," he replied. "You just get the hell out of there."

Charley Noble, who likes to learn from experience