"Using sex to sell songs" is, I reckon, about as old as the troubadors; it's just that the techniques were different at different times. Ditto "Using songs to sell sex". I haven't seen the video clip that started the discussion and I think I couldn't really be bothered either but, like WLD, I suspect it's not really music anyway. On Oz's ABC there's a music video program that plays overnight on weekends and my daughters watch it in the early mornings (when the officially naughty stuff has finished) when only some of it is soft porn. Whenever they comment favourably on an item I suggest they close their eyes and listen, so they can judge whether it is the audio or the video that appeals. Their taste in music is well informed, as is their taste in visuals.

To address Dave's original question; I recently came across a piece about Susan Sontag doing a stint as a Playboy Bunny in the early 60s to make a point that liberation for women should include acceptance of their ability to display themselves. I confess my reaction to such display has changed ("matured") over the years but, even when young, I recognised the difference between instinctive reaction and responsible and respectful reaction. I like to think I also learned to control reactions that may be instinctive and that some would call 'automatic'. I don't think one should be allowed to escape culpability by claiming that one's response was "automatic" but a question still remains.

Condemnation/acceptance of male responses doesn't address the question of whether any circumstances that may be regarded as allowing young women to display and be confident that their behaviour can be respected. Girls learn from women particularly and adults generally and I despair when I see the sexualised behaviour of 5 year olds entered by their parents in beauty pageants. And we wonder why there are so many paedophile networks! I think I have been successful in teaching my daughters to have respect for themselves and others and their self respect will be their guide. Good judgement in choosing their friends and colleagues may help in ensuring such friends and colleagues have similar standards of self respect. I live in hope.

Cheers, Rowan