Ok Amos, but I wasn't so much thinking of faith healing v. 'western medicine'. I was thinking more of what happens, for example, when tax dollars are used to fund embryonic stem cell research or fund abortions on the NHS. These actions conflict with the consciences of many Christians, which of course are intrinsically linked to their beliefs (and vice versa).

So to go back to the original thread topic, our beliefs will inspire or actions (naturally enough). Christians (for example, but Muslims and I believe, Jews have a similar outlook on the above topics... if any Muslims or Jews out there care to comment, feel welcome) tend to resent having to fund these activities which go against their consciences and if it were possible, would withold their tax dollars from those areas. Since it's not possible, they can only "render unto Ceaser what is Ceaser's". But they feel duty bound to use their voice and vote to change those policies which conflict with their consciences and beliefs.

Science can tell us that embryonic stem cells can be used to make any kind of cell, and that these can be used in very promising medical treatments. It can even tell us how this happens, the bio-mechanics. It can explain all this very well indeed. It can even show it happening with electron microscope photos. But what science cannot do, is tell us whether it is right or wrong to harvest human beings in this manner. Indeed, science doesn't even attempt to comment on such things, though individual scientists might do.

Since we are talking about building society, science can provide insight into how the world ticks, but not about values and morals. Rational thinking has its limitations too, since the ultimate authority to which we subject it is our own. We in turn lack the outside objectivity to know if our conclusions are not influenced in turn by the very organism (us) that brings them to life. It reminds me of chaos theory - the idea that even efforts to collect data in turn change the outcome of that data. We are so inside the system (the data, our minds) that there is an ultimate limit to our objectivity.

Christians believe that morality and values are something that need to be referred to a higher authority, named God, who alone has the objectivity and nature to give direction. You can fool yourself, but you can't fool God, as it were.

There's a story called 'Perfume' which for me epitomises the fallible nature of human rationality. The protaganist is what we might call 'psychotic'. But to him his values are quite rational. He values smells, and realises these are the most important thing. He kills a number of people in order to preserve from them the only thing of value (to him) - their scent. For him, killing was not wrong, but if he had destroyed their scent in so doing that for him would have been a disaster of the first magnitude. And in a world of moral relativism, who's to say he's 'wrong'? Just because a few thousand or more other people say he's wrong, perhaps he's right. It's all relative, isn't it? He had pefectly rational reasons for acting as he did.