Kevin, with great respect, I must disagree with many of your contentions. And I would suggest to you that the reason it is hard for you to understand the positions of folks here is cultural. I would point out that there are many positions that you and I have agreed on over the years here. I respect your view, and you are one of those Mudcatters for whom I will open a thread I am otherwise not interested in just to see what you have to say. I would hope that the general respect would go both ways. And so how can a couple of people who, I think, respect one anothers views, be so apart on one like this. You see the idea of protection from ones own government as an irrelevant fantasy. But in this country, that was one of the cornerstones of the establishment of our form of government. And that was only a bit over 200 years ago. That right, to keep and bear arms, for a great many of us, is ingrained in our sense of of who and what we are. It is something for which there must be a reason, and a very good one, to justify taking it away. Other than the fact that some don't see any reason for me to own my weapons, I have not heard a good one yet. It is not good enough that others don't think I should be allowed. I already am, and one must justify why they want to remove my right. Let's look at some reasons why folks want to "control" guns:

- To conrol gun violence. This is very nebulous. Are we talking about high crime area, gang style, violence? Gun control raises these types of crime. And the weapons used are virtually all illegally obtained.

- To control domestic violence. While these types of crimes get a lot of attention, most empirical data I have seen indicates that these types of crimes make up such a small portion of the total number as to be neglible.

- school shootings. See previous point. And in the two most notorious recent cases, Columbine and Virginia Tech, the weapons were obtained illegally.

Your point about training is one I happen to agree with. I believe that, in the case of obtaining a permit to carry a concealed weapon, but not to own weapons, the training standard is wholly inadequate.

As to the point about McVeigh, you actually make my point with that one. I believe that we must focus on the crimes, and enforcement of existing laws, even strengthening of existing laws, as opposed to the implements that have legal uses, as well as illegal uses.

Thanks for a reasoned post on the matter.

Mick