The Mudcat Café TM
Thread #104331   Message #2149750
Posted By: Jack Blandiver
15-Sep-07 - 06:57 AM
Thread Name: Folklore: The Green Man
Subject: RE: Folklore: The Green Man
Relationships between Herne / Cernunnos & the Green Man have been suggested before, but I've never seen an antlered Green Man. Those with horns are clearly depicted as Old Nick himself, who does, I admit, derive from earlier Romano-Celtic imagery, but never associated with foliage.

There is an absolute beauty in the Templar church of Saint Michael, at Garway in Herefordshire (for image click HERE ) - a classic example of the Herefordshire School of Romanesque Sculpture. Here, his satanic identity seems fairly unambiguous, though when we visited Garway earlier in the year, there was a big display detailing his pagan & folkloric associations! I note with interest that the new 'Merrily Watkins' novel by Phil Rickman
("As if an episode of The Vicar of Dibley had morphed into Cracker") is set around the church at Garway... Oo-er - though needs must I wait for the paperback, unless my ever resourceful father-in-law picks up a copy in a charity shop first...

I've never come across the phrase 'Out on the Greenman's' - is that a translation of the German? I like the speculation though, especially regarding the role of the 'outsider in the wilderness' in medieval / pre-industrial times, though it doesn't account for the fact that most Green Men are found actually on the inside of the Churches and Cathedrals. And is Pan ever depicted actually wearing leaves I wonder? Examples welcome!

Whilst it is undoubtedly true that the mission of the early church was to site both churches and festivals with respect to pagan sacred places & sacred dates, there is nothing to suggest the pagan deities themselves were ever taken on board. It is the sheer lack of anything resembling a 'Green Man' in the Romano-Celtic or the Norse-Saxon pantheons that is the problem for those wishing to establish a pagan precedent; hence the spurious links to the various Jacks-in-the-Green of folk custom, none of which are as old as the Green Men themselves.

Living as we do in the urbanised, polluted, sprawling mess that is 21st century England (Britain / Europe), it's quite natural that for many the 'Green Man' should become the mischievous guide that might lead us a fine dance back to a lost utopian wilderness of the green-wood (real or imagined / actual or symbolic) once peopled by such grotesque vagabondian outsiders we see depicted (as Green Men) in many churches. For some choice examples see my wee film of Saint Peter & Saint Paul, Salle, Norfolk - and if you're ever passing, be sure to call in...