Teribus, you say you posted a reply to my question as to the most effective form of protest on another thread about Burma. I didn't realise it was the custom in your part of the world to reply to a question from one thread on another thread ages later and that the recipient was supposed to guess where it had been hgidden and poke it out. But at least now I know. However, I feel duty bound to advise you I do not have time to read all the threads on Mudcat! ;-))

Anyway:

Teribus "Now I said that demos/protest marches were ineffective, you seem to agree that civil disobedience is more effective.
Quouting Nickhere "Marching and demos are at the less extreme end, so of course they are less effective in that sense;"

Yes, but as you will quickly see, 'less effective' is quite a different matter altogether from 'ineffective'. So let's be clear - I did not say protest marches were ineffective as your juxtaposition implies.

I should point out that I was thinking of forms of protest that are still within the bounds of the law, and was not going so far as to advocate breaking the law, which you do by advocating civil disobedience. Nor am I saying I don't agree with civil disobedience.

You say you thought the anti-war movement had mass support, as a way of implying my post suggested it doesn't (and which would therefore be a contradiction of the anti-war position). Again, this is a solipism. The anti-war movement does indeed have widespread support. there are lots and lots of people who morally do not support Bush or what is happening in Iraq etc., My point, which you seem to have missed, is that this support does not extend as far as breaking the law -yet. That people - even though they may disgaree with the war - are few in number who are willing to put their jobs and comfort on the line making the sacrifice for people far far away. That is human nature. We criticise the Germans for not resisting Hitler, but here we are with a moral outrage that we could do something about and we just let it go on. Perhaps history will judge us as harshly? The Germans at least had the excuse that they would have probably disappeared into concentration camps if they raised even a fuss. Of course, an even more effective form of 'protest' would be to raise a privbate army, storm the government and put a stop to the nonsense. But then you'd just be feeding a cycle of war, plus it would be illegal. So once again, I was thinking of a from of protest that most are willing to participatye in, and it has the effect of being a voice of dissedence, at least when it's not starved of media coverage as often seems to happen.

About that death toll - 600,000 was the figure given by Lancet about a YEAR ago, and it's safe to assume it's being going up since. I certainly doubt it has gone down. I'm glad to see you are no longer insisting that the bodies be stacked up for counting...


Iran / Iraq war: so, the USA NEVER armed or funded Saddam? Am I correct in thinking that's what you are saying?

As for the US not threatening Iran. 1) you forget they have already interfered with Iran by deposing their democratically elected leader in 1958 and installing the pro-US Shah; which Iran has not forgotten. By the way Iran signed up to the NPT under the Shah, and since it's had a total regime change since then, I see no reason why it should continue to be bound by an agreement made with an unelected leader illegally installed by the US.
2) The US has never forgiven or forgotten Iran for the US embassy hostage crisis. Though under the terms signed to secure the hostages release the US agreed never again to interfere in Iran or its government etc., Seems the US is the one renaging on its signed agreements.
3) I seem to remember far more recent threats made to Iran, at the lower end of the scale were White House comments about not ruling out 'any measures' (read militray intervention'). And Yesterday on the news they were talking more openly of attacking Iran. There's little doubt they'll do it, perhaps having learned from Iraq they just want some psuedo-legal backing for what they intend to do anyway. And as sure as night is day, just as has happened in Iraq, thousands upon thousands of Iranian civilians will die or have their lives reduced to abject misery. Is that all right with you?