Well said, Spaw. I specially concur with your first half about the Frenchman, Ellul. I think that is absolutely correct. There is an inertia in most political systems that is almost immovable, short of a genuine revolution...a radical change in basic structure and procedures. Neither you nor I will live to see that happen in the USA, but it will come eventually.

As for your endless bleating about other people's lack of "logic", Ron...as if you and those who agree 100% with you about everything were its sole protectors in this world....(!)...

Codswallop.

People in a political debate all use logic, they use logic that supports their viewpoint, but very few of them ever have the slightest respect or time for anyone else's logic from an opposing viewpoint. They don't even hear it. They're too busy patting themselves on the back as they reread their last post and basking in their own supposed brilliance and sagacity...and you are about the most egregious example of that sort of hubris that I ever see on this forum.

I wish there was an exact doppelganger of you out there...only with diametrically opposing political views, a rabid Clinton-backer...call him "Don Ravies"...and the two of you could keep each other busy, insulting carping and sneering at each other's pathetic lack of logic and demanding proof of the other's assertions all the livelong day. That would be damn funny, and it would give the rest of us a little bit of a rest.