I really don't want to fan the flames any further and I think I've generally said enough for one lifetime (and subsequently been quoted completely out of context enough for one lifetime...).

I'd just like you all to click the link to this thread Scan Tester Workshop at the Lewes Arms and carefully read Valmai Goodyear's post.

This sort of event is an excellent and admirable positive example of the sort of essential work that could be done by folk clubs to promote traditional music. It needs to be trumpeted from the rooftops as a shining example of how things maybe ought to be, not just in Lewes, but in every town and city across the country.

No wonder Bryan the Snail has such a postive view of folk clubs. He has this on his doorstep (and no doubt was involved in making it happen). I would feel exactly the same as he does, I'm sure, if I had anything like this anywhere in driving distance. I would probably also have the same level of annoyance he does at those whose put forward a contrary viewpoint.

Is anything like this happening in or around Manchester, I wonder? Whenever I look at the local listings I never see ANY evidence of this sort of thing. Maybe other Mancunian Mudcat users could point out to me that I'm mistaken, that it's staring me in the face or that I'm just looking in all the wrong places. I hope so. I doubt it, but I hope so.

(The cheap and easy answer is that if I don't like it, I should do something about it. Point taken, but... it's actually the answer to everything and is also a useful rhetorical device to stifle potentially healthy and in my opinion, much needed debate).

Can anyone please tell me I've got it completely wrong and what Bryan and Co are doing is actually the norm on the folk club scene? Have I just been incredibly and consistently unlucky?

I wonder whether the data Tom and Folk Wise are collecting could be the basis of a state of the nation report with good practice case studies? Or should we just accept things are as they are and that whatever that means at any given time is always 'good enough'? Can we learn, adapt and change and is it desirable or necessary to do so? Do organisers of successful, healthy clubs need to publish their secrets for success on the internet? Do people even agree what a healthy folk club is?

Would a national data base of folk clubs with a brief description of their modus operandi and their main focus and function be a good thing? Or should we wait for all but (few?) good ones to wither on the vine as the core membership leaves for the great folk club in the sky?

Beyond the rather polarised positions we take in order to more forcefully make our points, is such a debate a good thing? Is not having the debate about not airing dirty linen in public, a reflection that all is fine and dandy, sweeping the mess under the carpet or a side effect of complancy? Or none of the above?

And more importantly, am I going to really, really regret posting this as the 'shut the f*** up, you don't even like folk clubs' comments start?

In case there is any misapprehension, I ask these questions with all due respect, not least because I probably would go to a folk club if I could find one I liked reasonably near to home.



Cheers

Nigel (putting on body armour and tin hat)

PS I probably didn't make this clear in my earlier posts, but I absolutely love being in a small room populated by people of varying abilities and skills singing to each other for the sheer joy of it and even though I'm not a singer myself, try to get along to my local singaround when I can. However, I also think such private/semi private gatherings aren't really relevant to this discussion.