irishenglish, your post of 25 Apr 08 - 12:33 PM, intriques me slightly:

"Don't you think that our fair treatment of prisoners, ie, not stripping them naked, making them get in dogpiles, photographing them just might result in them treating our own POW's with decency? "Your contention that either US or UK Forces initiation of "torture" has lead to the terrorists adopting such practices is ludicrous." Is it really? It's not necessarily for the "now" Teribus. These things are remembered. When Abu Graibh hit the news, did you not think to yourself, uh oh, this can't be good for our guys? I know I did."

Eh, irishenglish, don't know where you were brought up, or what age you are. But for my generation in the UK there were many POW tales and "escape" stories abounded. So many in fact that our US cousins actually believe that a Steve McQueen character did all that marvelous stunt riding of motor-cycles during what was in fact the "Greatest Escape" ever made.

Now please irishenglish, please regale us all of POW escapes by the Russians in Afghanistan. Hells teeth, they maintained an Army of over 175,000 men there for the best part of a decade. There must have been some of them taken prisoner? How were they treated irishenglish? All this pre-dates Bush so their treatment could not have been predicated by what US forces have ever done.

Tell you what irishenglish you will not be able to come up with one single story. Do you know why? Because the other side simply did not take prisoners - rather scary isn't it.

So please do not in any way shape shape or form attempt to lecture those at the sharp end of things. They are fighting for survival, the strongest instinct known to mankind, they react as required and do whatever is necessary. That I understand, that is reality for those actively engaged, where the US Bill of Rights, the US Constitution, the European Bill of Human Rights and the Geneva Convention don't matter a shit if you happen to get caught by the opposition.

What happened in Abu Ghraib was absolute "peanuts" to what went on there in Sadddam's day - there are plenty survivors tales to testify to that if you care to read them. The treatment of prisoners is a damn site better that any of our troops could expect to receive at their hands and that has been a known factor since day one.

Expect the usual responses from those who tend to theorise and have never themselves ever been in harms way on the behalf of others for one second in their lives.