Fair point, Folkie Dave - in a way.

Although it's actually quite a narrow list: traditional singers; singers of traditional songs, a few "folk club approved" singer songwriters and a couple of folk rock bands. Not entirely complaining, though: I'm hugely enthusiastic about some of the names you've listed.

So how much broader could it have been? Who in the broad genre of folk is an example which I have not listed?

It was not my intention to do a list of folk singers you and I might like - but to point out that those names have hugely different styles and repertoires. So to accuse "folk" of having a narrow viewpoint is simply round spherical objects. It isn't the first time Alex Petridis has propagated this view in the Guardian - though it looks as if he hasn't been out since the last time he wrote it.

The festival and concert scene side of the folk world is indeed far more open minded than the UK folk world as manifested, for example, on Mudcat could ever be.

Hang on a bit - I belong to both (and folk clubs as well) - where the hell do I and many like me fit in? At Warwick Festival a couple of years ago I compiled a mudcat attenders list that was about two pages long. This weekend at Dent it was a page long - though that did inlcude three from one family!! Most people do at least two out of three as far as I can see.

Here's another list: Jackie Oates, Jim Causley, Jon Loomes, Spiers and Boden, the Askew Sisters, Bella Hardy, James Raynard, Mawkin, Ruth Notman, John Dipper. Off the top of my head. All excellent singers and players from the younger generations of folk performers. Not a one of them has played at any of the folk clubs in the major city where I live, as far as I know.

I live in Sheffield which is a hot bed of folk though not folk clubs, most of which apart from one tend to be on the lesser or greater outskirts. But in the last week I have seen Craig Morgan Robson - this week I shall see Tom Bliss and Martyn Wyndham-Read. I was at Dent Festival this weekend. Both Jackie Oates and the Askew Sisters have been to a local pub to play - the idea that their fees were high for the Rivelin which is really a singaround club with occasional guests is ludicrous.

Mawkin now appear as a five piece with Jim Causely,how much do you think they should be paid? James Raynard no longer sings, Jon Boden is on at the singaround club in Sheffield Town Centre with his partner Fay Hield next week. I doubt Ruth Notman has done much in the way of folk clubs much anway but she seems to have a full gig list. John Dipper spends more time teaching and doing things "violin" than anything - he also plays with the Methera String Quartet. Unlikely to come cheap at a club.

It could be argued that the answer is for me to start a better club than those around me.

That depends whether you have a load of money to start one up. I have been to some really poorly run clubs run by enthusiasts and have been to some great ones run by people who know little about folk. I know people who do similar things to you full time and run large scale festivals.

A better idea is not to go down that road.

In summary, Alex Petradis's comments do reflect how it often feels to those of us who are on the outside, faces squashed against the glass, looking in.

In summary Alex Petradis has a view point of folk music which in no way relects the reality as I see it. Whether you want to agree with him is up to you. I happen to believe the future of the folk club is with either small sing-around clubs into which people build up a fund to pay an artist - or concert style clubs.

When I go to festivals I see lots of good quality artists, and there are a variety of festivals to suit all tastes and pockets. I see loads of young people of all ages at most and even more at some festivals (last weekend in Dent was virtually all families as far as I could see!)

A bit like interlopers in a world that isn't theirs.

That applies to all things - golf clubs - classical music etc etc.....

And maybe that's one of the reasons why there's not enough guest-based clubs to sustain the careers of more than just a few professional folk singers, and to go back to the point of the thread, its so hard for them to earn a living.

As Tom Bliss has said, nationally, there simply aren't enough decent guest nights to go around. And we can't keep citing the same handful of examples that buck the trend in an attempt to keep our heads valiantly buried in the sand.

The folk scene is as it is - not how you or I would like it to be.

And whilst there's nothing wrong with that, per se, can you see why us "punters" wouldn't want to stand on the periphery watching your private party?The festival and concert scene side of the folk world is indeed far more open minded than the UK folk world as manifested, for example, on Mudcat could ever be.

I see them much as the same people.

One thing for certain it would be interesting to see how much folk music Alex Petradis actually goes to. Very little as far as I can see.