Thanks for saying that for me, CarolC - IB, perhaps in his desperation to be better than the re-pat., either didn't read or chose to ignore that I have gardened in the past; I've also read and watched quite a lot of gardening material. And, as for "You really should get out more, WAV - see something of the world", IB - how about say 40 countries, on a shoestring, plus the Rothbury Traditional Music Festival, today? Nothing wrong with being competitive, but that's stupidly over-competitive language, frankly.