The Mudcat Café TM
Thread #114154   Message #2437765
Posted By: Bill D
11-Sep-08 - 05:49 PM
Thread Name: BS: Out of body experiences
Subject: RE: BS: Out of body experiences
Nope..not a liar, Peace, *smile*.... As I said before, I NEVER doubt that a person experienced 'something'. It may even be relevant to their life and very moving emotionally...and important that they come to terms with certain memories & experiences. I have had a few myself.
Nor am I 'looking' for the cause. I am suggesting that there are, logically and rationally, OTHER possible causes than what Amos and others are claiming, thus casting doubt on various METAphysical concepts. I debate with Amos because he specifically claims that there ARE 'spiritual entities' which can both be part of a physical body and be separate from it. Look at his post right above yours.
Amos... I can define Gods & Angels and Demons in similar language, as well as many other concepts humans use, but using the words serves only to express an idea....and IF that's all one wants to do....that is, to create conceptual entities to account for experiences and feelings that are hard to grasp otherwise, then I can't really complain. People DO use metaphor and modeling thru language to express our reflections on existence and the possible meanings of existence when we are GIVEN few clues. This is done in poetry and literature and song every day.
   *I* sing songs that express such things, and manages to convey emotion and wonder at the very IDEA of being alive and capable of reflexive conciousness. I just don't fall into the trap of assuming that concepts, like Platonic 'forms', have any cognitive reality and can act independently of the corporeal being that has them.
THAT is what I suggest implies and requires many un-stated premises, which, if any one of them are false, causes the whole house-of cards to collapse. THAT is what Occam refers to when he suggests his 'razor' as a guide, and THAT is what is so often just slipped into a story as if everyone should realize its truth...even if we can't agree on what it is, where it came from or how to list its characteristics.
   That's what makes it so slippery....people nod knowingly and assume they 'understand' in order to support each other's emotional reactions to what **MAY** be nothing more than electrochemical patterns of neural activity in their brains. It is sure not nearly as interesting if it only a form of dreaming.

   I saw a program the other night about a special branch of psychology concerned with memory and how much confidence we place in our memories. Tests were done where people wore helmet cameras, and were presented with strange circumstances. Later, they were interviewed about the situations, and,,,yes...their memories often differed widely from what the testers KNEW had happened and what video from cameras showed! When experience is hard to take in & interpret, our natural tendency is to MAKE some sense out of it...even to creating facts and then swearing that's what happened.
   No, they weren't lying!! They had processed memories until they had a coherent pattern to relate.
Now...I submit that if a body is near death, or reacting to drugs in a hospital...etc...it sure might have it's neural pathways discombomulated (that's a technical term)...I myself once experienced LSD..wow, fellers! But I don't think any of those 'sights' that I saw were real, or that any 'spiritual' part of me left & went wandering!

As they say, "you can't prove a negative"...so it is not my goal to say "You could not have done what you say you did." My only goal is to make sure that alternate possibilities are outlined...especially when I am asked, as Jane did. No...I retract that...I have another goal... to force myself to clarify my own thoughts and to put them down so that, if I re-read this thread in a few months or years, I will be satisfied that I said what I meant and that I'm happy to have others read it. Why, even succeed in that now & then.