Guest Jim Martin - Absolutely at £79 per "Conference" the organisers must be doing quite well, but then of course all the faithful have to haul their butts to Oxford to attend these bashes and get the word - hardly all that "green" in the final analysis.

Bobert - 19 Sep 08 - 08:39 PM - Is classically protraying Capitalism as a political ideology - IT IS NOT, nor has it ever been so, it is an economic ideology that can quite successfully co-exist with whatever political system choses to adopt it. The ills of which you speak would not disappear with "capitalism" they are a matter of law which is governed by the political system and it's judicial arm, which everybody gets the opportunity to vote on - True? As to a well informed electorate, tell us all Bobert, supposedly as one of those who makes up the electorate of the United States of America
whose responsibility is it to see that you are well informed?? I think you will find Bobert that that particular responsibility is yours and yours alone.

akenaton - 20 Sep 08 - 03:13 AM

"Bobert.."Both capitalism and socialism can work if they are fair..."

Capitalism can never be "fair"
Capitalism involves selling your life and the lives of your children for the means to exist week to week.

It also involves feeding a taxation system, which is used by the Capitalists as a tool to keep the system running, not to safeguard the welfare of taxpayers."

Well sorry Akenaton, but I would state with a certain degree of qualification that what Bobert has said there is perfectly true. I would also say that what CarolC has said previously regarding there having to be a mix, some sort of compromise to produce the optimum achievable result is also true. Nearest actual examples that I can think of off hand are Finland; Sweden; Denmark; Norway; Iceland . note all "small" countries in terms of populations; all "northern" countries with a historical tradition whereby their citizens due to climate and conditions had to work together so that all could survive; all follow "capitalist" economies; they maintain a democratic system which incorporates proportional representation which successfully curbs the excesses of left or right; all are fiscally responsible.

Your claim, tenet, bleat, call it what you will that:

Capitalism can never be "fair"

Really?? So it's rather like life then is it?? Because Akenaton, and I hate to disillusion you at your time of life but "life" is not, nor will it ever be "fair".

"Capitalism involves selling your life and the lives of your children for the means to exist week to week." - Akenaton

Arrant nonsense. Now were that indeed the case Akenaton, tell us all how long "capitalism" has been the driving economic ideology of the USA and of the British Isles? Having answered that question in your own mind go back to the 1820's when what is known as "modern" photography began with the first permanent photographs. Can you explain to us Akenaton how a system which you says demands the enslavement of the working class and their children in a downward spiral of poverty and deprivation has produced such improvements in life expectancy; general health; education; employment opportunity as can be witnessed by looking at any representative photograph from the 1820's and comparing it to one taken today?? In the 1820's was Longleat open to the public? Oh yes, social conscience, trade unions and Labour Governments played their part on the political side of things, but it was the economics of "capitalism" that provide the wealth and funding for it. All systems with a "socialist" agenda that have rejected "capitalism" and opted for state dictat and control have stagnated and failed - Fact.

Taxation systems you vote for Akenaton - this you will discover if your dearly held hope of Scottish Independence ever comes to anything, only then it will be your "socialist-until-failed" SNP Government that will be taxing you, it will not be "capitalism" taxing you. It is the government for which you vote that decides how and on what the tax revenues of the country are spent, not "capitalists".

Your example of Government not safeguarding the welfare of taxpayers:

".....America, where the Capitalist governments of both parties refuse to supply a "fair" National Health System"

Ever since America became independent Akenaton, any political party or any politician in America, at any level of politics in the land, could have stood on the "Hustings" and proposed what you describe as a "fair" National Health System" to his electorate. They would all go wild with joy, until he then tells them exactly how much it will cost to set up and how much it will cost to run, and then tells them that they will have to pay for this through taxation year in year out - That is the point at which that particular candidate becomes unelectable. The USA does not have a "fair" National Health System because the American people in general are not prepared to pay for it, pure and simple, it's got nothing to do with the economic system in place that generates income.