I do hope, Ian, that you don't think I have been saying that only they who put on folk Concerts for, and take money from, Punters are running proper 'Folk Clubs.'

If you do, please go back and read all my posts MUCH more carefully.

I have merely been referring (using plenty of caveats in a vain attempt to avoid being misunderstood) to those aspects of those clubs which DO do those things.

Actually, I don't remember anyone esle saying anything of the sort on this thread either.

It is a massive tragedy that when some people see the word 'folk club' they think only of the model with which they are most familiar and then offer only that template to the argument in question - even when the point being raised concerns a very different kind of club, and that this has been pointed out firmly in. words. of. one. sill. a. bell.

I repeat. There are lots of kinds of club. All valid. All important. We need all those kinds, and freedom to move between them as we wish, for folk music to flourish.

But as has been pointed out many many times by many many people, this discussion was not initially about singing clubs or sessions, and merely talking about the issues that do affect Concert Clubs or Guest Clubs does not say we think they are more important than Singer Clubs. Singers Clubs are vital too and I agree most a lot of what you've said about those - but I don't think they're dying, so I've not been addressing them.

I agree with you about singer-songwriters who write because they have something to say too (but don't call them 'folk singer-songwriters' unless you want Jim to ask you to step outside!), but please don't assume that those of us who do have albums to fill are any less inspired, committed, driven, even.

I'm so driven I gave up my day job to do it!

And your phrase "a friendly sharing folk club than one based on commercialism" needs answering. These things are not mutually exclusive, you know.

Most friendly sharing clubs run on a sound financial footing, and do the many things necessary to maintain that footing. That's all commercialism means. Don't take the word to mean anything bad. It's not.

And just a final thought on this 'entertainment' lark.

Are people thinking that when I talk about being an entertainer I'm talking about dumbing down to some crass comedy level? If so, please reserve your judgement of me until you have seen me playing. That is not what the word implies. I may crack a few jokes and tell some funny/interesting stories, but to hold an audience spellbound with an ancient traditional song, to make 700 people cry with a topic story about child murder, to deal with issues like adoption, gay relationships, abortion - to stimulate thought without making everyone want to leave in despair means you have to put your soul on the line. Some of you have seen me do it, and I know scores of other performer (some who post here) who do the same. This is still entertainment. That is what it is called.

Tom